Mads Singers on why SEO is an insane ROI and how to be one of the big winners in the SEO World

July 20, 2021 00:53:17
Mads Singers on why SEO is an insane ROI and how to be one of the big winners in the SEO World
Niche Website Builders Show
Mads Singers on why SEO is an insane ROI and how to be one of the big winners in the SEO World
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Show Notes

In this episode of the Niche Website Builders Podcast, Mark Mars talks to Mads Singers about SEO. The people who are making money in SEO are not those really geeky, nerdy types that focus on the minute details, but the competitive business people are the ones crushing it.

Mads is a management coach and consultant who helps business owners in SEO, eCommerce, and other online worlds. His one main focus remains the same – effective people management.   

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 0 00:00:09 Are you ready to get serious about building content sites and building a profitable business online. Welcome to the niche website builders podcast. We bring you the latest field, tested tips, tricks and strategies for building a profitable online asset. We interview industry experts, share customer success stories and reveal our own experiences. Working on hundreds of sites to inspire and motivate you to make something happen. Let's do this Speaker 1 00:00:43 Speak with Matt singers. So if you're listening to the video version or watching the video version of the show, I've still got a smile on my face. I had a really good chat with Matt. Uh, we've just wrapped up. We just finished, but you know, I really enjoyed it because, you know, he was just really like talking my language in terms of, you know, everything, the way he describes SCM and what it does and something that he didn't share on the call, but he kind of shared just shortly after was, you know, he said, they know that people are making money in SEO and not those kind of really geeky nerdy types that are focusing on the minute details. The people that are business people that are the people that are competitive business people that are the guys that are, that are crushing it, the guys that are really doing the job. Speaker 1 00:01:19 And I totally see that. And I totally agree with that as well. Um, so there was lots of great insight. It was kind of mad at a slightly different, uh, person to them than other interviews that we've done in that he kind of sits, you know, he obliged part of his business and management consultancy. So he works with huge organizations, but also small organizations, but he very much focuses on, uh, the SEO and digital marketing world. So he, he kind of only deals with those kinds of companies or at least, you know, if he's dealing within the enterprise or huge organizations, he's dealing with the SEO kind of, uh, facility or the SEO arm of that organization. Um, so we, he also runs a, an event he's run two of them before, and he's running another one again in September. So there'll be six months called SEO mastery where he gets lots of speakers on to talk SEO. Speaker 1 00:02:05 Um, so we have a really good conversation about the SEO mastery event and the speakers and the, and, and some of the learnings from Matt, um, which definitely can be applied to what we do as content publishers. Um, and we also talk about a little bit about how do you go about building a small team to efficiently kind of manage and run a site, whether that's, you know, by employing an agency or series of agencies or just individuals to do that? Like how, how do you, how do you make that happen? How do you make that efficient and how do you get the best return on investment? So I hope you enjoy the, the, the, the show as much as I did. Uh, I really enjoyed talking to Matt. Um, just a quick shout out for a couple of things on that site, again, if you haven't checked them out yet. Speaker 1 00:02:44 So, um, we also took on the show with Mads about how, uh, expired or Asia auction domains are still like so relevant today. And Matt's describes them as an unfair advantage. I can just go like, we, we totally see that. And that's probably why he always hears on about it. So, um, you know, we, we saw aged domains. If you haven't checked them out yet, you can go to our site niche, web I'm, I'm mixed between niche and niche these days, because I'm half American and half English these days, the way I speak, but niche, website.builders, slash domains for expired domains. And we also put some resources up onto the site, which are things like, you know, how do you increase your ad revenue, um, from making small optimizations on your site? Um, and how I remember off the top of my head, what the other one was, but there's a couple of resources there that we've done as, as, as kind of ebook TimeStar things. So you had over to a niche website, builders slash resources, and you can kind of go and pick them up there. Um, but for now, I'll stop talking and we'll hand over to Matt and I hope you enjoyed the show. Speaker 0 00:03:49 This episode is brought to you by niche website builders, an agency dedicated to helping people, just like you build profitable content sites, niche website builders are the hands-off content site marketing agency. You always wished existed. It's run by content site marketers for content site marketers, and they help both investors and individuals alike build profitable online properties. They provide a fully outsourced approach to content creation link-building and done for you. Website builds the same approach they use on their own six-figure portfolios. For example, their content packages come with a proprietary keyword research process are written by in-house native English speakers formatted using templates proven to convert and uploaded to WordPress with affiliate links added so that all you need to do is hit the publish button, check them [email protected] slash show that's niche, website.builders/show, and fill out the form to get coupon codes for 10% more content, or a 10% discount on links with your first daughter sent right to your inbox. Welcome back Speaker 1 00:04:56 To the niche website builders show. Today I speak with Matt sings. Um, Matt singers is a management coach works with companies large and small, but mainly in a capacity as a, in the SEO world, working with SEO, ACS, he, uh, recently had an event, an online event called, uh, SEO mastery, uh, which brought a lot of industry players, uh, to have a conversation essentially, um, on different topics of SEO. And he's currently preparing. So I've just heard for the next event two in September. So, uh, we'll talk a little bit about that, but I just want to welcome Matt to the show. Welcome Matt. Speaker 2 00:05:31 Thank you so much, mark. It's a pleasure to be here. Speaker 1 00:05:34 Excellent. Excellent. Well, it'd be really good at the start. I think to give our audience a little bit of a rundown for those people that haven't heard much about you, or haven't heard about your essay must be a vet and what you do to hear a little bit about yourself. So I'll let you definitely the way Speaker 2 00:05:50 I should say I'm a management consultant. I work with lots of, lots of us. I see a horse that I'm trying to grow and scale, right? Uh, one thing most SEOs have in common is they're not great managers and most don't have management background and experience. So both building a small team, but also for the ones that actually managed to build a small team and started sort of starting to hiring managers within the business. And so on, they often struggle with one thing which is, you know, actually getting consistent delivery. So I work with a lot of those people. I work with a lot of greatest sales people I've met, <inaudible> uh, worked with the HVAC guys and lots of, lots of great SEOs around the world. Um, yeah, that's, that's really my sort of key passion. So I was run the SEO mastery summit, which basically the goal for me is to provide some free to low cost SEO knowledge for, for everyone in the SEO world. Speaker 2 00:06:48 Right? So, um, I'll obviously go into physical conferences and stuff is extremely valuable and does a lot of stuff to learn and benefit from in that sense. Right. But the, the beautiful thing we have with online is that it really gives us never come up at Trinity to provide a great concert. And then we started this sort of, uh, in the beginning of the lockdown and we ran the first event November last year and then another one here in March. So basically the goal is we, we run it twice a year. Um, a couple of things that makes us very different from all the conferences is we train them. I have the same speakers twice, which means that it's always new faces. And we do that both because we, we don't want to constantly have the same people because with a lot of conferences, you always see the same faces under roster, uh, time after time. Speaker 2 00:07:40 So we're trying to make sure we get a good turnaround and people also, because there is so many great SEOs out there, right? There's so many people and not everyone, you know, famous, and that's not our goal. Our goal is really to provide an event that really teaches a lot of great SEO at a low to no cost, right? So that's really our fundamental focus with the SEO masters, summit it again, getting people exposure. I mean, I I've done public speaking for 10 years. And even though I was speaking at a online conference that is not the same, it is a good way to practice. So many people want to be speakers who want to, you know, improve that skill level. Uh, it's also from my point of view, also a great opportunity to do so. And yeah, that's, uh, that's another great benefit we try and provide, Speaker 1 00:08:32 That's it? Yeah. Well, I attended a number of the sessions, uh, in the last past event. Um, and they were very good. Yeah. So I think that's a really good idea. Cause my, my immediate thought then when you, when you say, you know, I don't have the same speaker twice, I think you're going to run out of speakers, but of course you're not, you know, there's so many people that are visible in public. There's many, many, many great SES around the world. Um, so yeah, that totally makes sense. I guess. Definitely. Speaker 2 00:08:56 I mean, it's something we might write, but, but we're running the third event now and with more people signing up wanting to talk and we've ever had, so, uh, definitely, definitely. It's not slowing down, Speaker 1 00:09:08 Let's say that way. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yes. From a pure, for a pure business perspective for you, I guess this is your, your audience, right? Like the more, the people that are becoming, going to be coming to the event, um, you know, it's kind of a lead gen into your, into your management consulting. Does that yeah. A few Speaker 2 00:09:26 Things. I mean, my core focus with it is it happened as much Bentley down left, let's say that way. Right. I, uh, I love talking to people. I love doing podcasts or doing videos and so on and have that the benefit is when you get to a certain stage of business, you can start focusing more on the things you like. Um, uh, I love interviewing people, talking with people and I'm, it pains me, but I'm not great at writing and as an SEO. And if you're like ranking for stuff, come to this great, uh, particularly in the written word, but, uh, I, I had to, yeah, I'm much better at the, at the spoken word. So I, again, tried to play with my strength and place my strengths and so on. So yeah, Speaker 1 00:10:12 Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. I can, I can, I can sympathize with that. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not a writer at all either. And I could also concur that you like, uh, the opportunity to talk as well. Cause we only barely spoke. We only kind of did it yesterday and you said you can, you can come on the podcast the next day. So definitely. Um, that would be great. So, yeah. Thanks. Thanks again for doing that at short notice. That's great. Yeah. I think, Speaker 2 00:10:33 I think for a lot of people, right? Like a lot of people are so busy being busy and I think a lot of time, uh, I mean that's a good, old saying that the best way to learn is to teach. And I'm a, I'm a core believer in that and I love teaching everything and no matter what level I'm at, just because, you know, when you're trying to teach things, when you're, when you're explaining concepts, it helps you make it much clearer yourself, which is just a huge benefit. Speaker 1 00:10:59 I agree. And they're like, identify the holes that you didn't realize you didn't know as well. Like, well, I used to work at Microsoft as a consultant and, um, and uh, when you're getting to consult with somebody, I mean, a consultant is like, they always say, you know, you only need to be like a day ahead of the person you're teaching. Cause like, you don't need to be miles ahead, but when you're actually talking at an event or something like that, or you suddenly go into the topic and then you suddenly realize, oh boy, if somebody asks me on this very specific area, I'm not really going to have a good answer. So then you have to go down and you get better as a I didn't in your understanding actually, I think that's really cool. So a couple of questions about the event then. So all the events that you've been, we've been running and I guess just really from your experience over the years, like if you were just to, to, in a few paragraphs, had to describe what it means to be an SEO in 2021, what would you say? Speaker 2 00:11:50 Yeah, I, I think, uh, the, the key things really about being able to, to gather and comprehend, I call it basics, but really understand what does it take to rank in Google? I think one of the key things that I see as though I think most SEO's, and that's a personality thing, most of the seals love learning and love and knowledge more than the, like putting it into action. And I think a lot of the time people complicate things a lot more than, than each other. Um, my personal view, uh, also running a small SEO company where we build our own sites and so on, um, is that, uh, 80 20 is still around continent lakes. Right. And I think like, yes, there's technical stuff. Yes. To speed study up. Yes. Those various things. But, but reality is that most people spent so much time looking for golden nuggets that in principle, by themselves doesn't end up making a big difference. Speaker 2 00:12:53 But a lot of the time people like, oh, I made this content is not ranking. I, there must be a master key to make it right. Whereas really my experiences to magic key and SEO is consistency. Right. So in, in SEO, you typically don't see amazing results the first day you start doing stuff, right? So when you post content, when you're doing links, you'll see gradual improvements. And over time, at some point, ideally you get to some kind of huggy curve. Right. And that's, that's my experience, right? Every side we work on that gets significantly better. It's it's not a question of, oh, we pressed as Matt. I mean, sometimes there's obvious mistake like, oh, this page wasn't indexed or whatever. Right. But again, like you, you don't need to be an expert to find those. You can either pay other people to do that very simply and so on. Speaker 2 00:13:42 But, but for me, basically, if you can build a solid, solid content processes, number one, to have a solid content output that is absolute key, right. Or you can, sometimes you can buy it too from, from companies or services for the lights, but, but a consistent company content output based on solid keyword research, right. That is for me, number one, and then links are still a big thing, right? They are. And uh, there's definitely more and more examples where you can rank without links. But for me, again, it's kind of, it's the rocket fuel, right? If you're already, if you're ranking with links, uh, without links, a few links would make you rank significantly better. Right? So that's how I still look at it. It's still a very worthwhile investment I can, that might change in the future. But at this point in time, links is definitely still worthwhile. Speaker 2 00:14:40 Now, obviously again, there's many ways to acquire those, but, but I basically look at most SEO companies from my point of view should look at those two pillars as the main thing and probably content that's number. Right. The beautiful thing about the links is that it is probably the easiest service to actually go on by, uh, it's the easiest thing. Like you can go buy content or get people to write your content, but you need to make sure you have a solid, you know, content round. You need to make sure that, you know, again, your keyword research is solid and the quality is, is top-notch right. And with links, you don't really have the same. I mean, you obviously want good links, but it's easier to find them than it is to go and pay some random person, a hundred bucks and then get a magical piece of content. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:15:30 Well it's like, I, yeah. It's like listening to myself talking, you're like, you're speaking exactly the same language I do. I like, and I talked to people at my sister or friends or family and like, you know, I like you, you can do this. Like there's people who write, you know, they like writing and I'm like, but they're like, oh no, I just don't understand. I could never, but I like, I'll do the keyword research for a year. Like, you know, and then you, I tell you what articles the on. Right. And you can go and write them. And honestly, it'll just be that people that aren't in our world just don't have the faith, but Jen, but really it's so simple. It's so you don't over complicate what we do and SEO and stuff, but really Jessica, the keyword research. Right. And do write great content and that's going to get you a long way and then add some links and, and, and, and, you know, you're there. Like, and what I also hear is there's a lot of people that kind of looking at th the other fringe stuff they're looking at like, uh, now what should the meta-description be? Or what's, what's the, uh, you know, how do I speed up my site by 0.1 milliseconds? You know, it's like, forget that stuff. It's posted enough. Just like get on with the content. Speaker 2 00:16:36 Yeah. So, so the key thing for me, and this is, again, most SEO's want to know everything because they like it. I'm by nature, guilty of that myself. But as a business person, I understand that make no sense. I had, I mean, I don't remember. I was posting very big SEO guy at one point. And he was like, oh yeah, I'm sorry to make my team expert at speed optimization. I'm like, do you want to hire a full-time person to do a speed up to my station for the 3, 4, 5 websites that you've run? My you're going to pay a developer X, grand a month to do so, right. There's people who do this for 3, 4, 500 bucks per site, like go and pay them a once a fee, get it up to my us. And, you know, like most, most SEOs are horrible at business decisions, right. They like nerding into all the nerdy stuff, but reality is that most of all this likely to do it audience like pay someone enough to do it. Your time is better spent focusing on the things that makes the biggest difference. Right? If the, someone was great at running a technical audit or a content audit or whatever, get them stew, it provides you a conversation, take action. And the recommendation, then, you know, it's your headache. Speaker 1 00:17:48 Yeah, for sure. So some of the sites that you, you said that you're building for yourself with this other company is how are those monetized a, like what, what, what kind of sites are they Speaker 2 00:18:01 As affiliates? Uh, primary. We have a few of those kind of do, or sort of lead gen ads, some afforded us to estimate monetization model. Speaker 1 00:18:12 Okay, cool. Interesting. And kind of what sort of affiliate programs do you generally work with private affiliate programs with Amazon? Like, so it's a mix. Speaker 2 00:18:22 Um, so depending a lot on the side and the niche, if we aren't like we, we are in a few niches that are broad physical products. And what we do is we tend to start out with Amazon. Uh, most people I love on this one because the ECDS simple, and it's very easy to see what you actually sell. So as soon as you're selling more than, you know, if you have a page that's making 10 plus sales a month, go look for a different affiliate, or at least the number one offer you have go and look for an external affiliate and get higher pay. But, but the thing is, I see so many people, you know, if they have 50 best posts and they're like, oh, I don't want to use Amazon. And then they go around and find, you know, top 10 products for 50 best posts. So like 500 unique products, the time it takes you to troll to a bunch of affiliate products and find 500 other offers that are not on the sun. Yeah. Just because you hit Amazon, um, it's not in my experience, a very efficient process. Right. So if you are in that product world, I totally recommend using Amazon initially and then swapping out and looking when you're actually getting significant traffic, when you're actually generating a certain amount of sales for those products where you're doing those sales, like go and find one or two alternatives. Yes. Speaker 1 00:19:42 I agree. Once again, exactly how I did it. Exactly. Why I present statistics. Yeah. Like, yeah. There's no point in doing all that, spending all that time, finding a deals and negotiate. He does. If you don't know, you might not end up selling anything. So yeah. Wait till now, obviously Speaker 2 00:19:57 There's other niches where physical product is nothing and then Allison might not be great them. And that's totally, that totally makes sense. Right. But, but definitely if Amazon is relevant again, like if you have an article that you know, is going to be the center of your site yes. Go and find one or two or three products that are not honest with them, put them on. And if, you know, that's the keyword you really want to bank on like do that. Right. That's all right. But, but just like, again, kind of look on the right. Like don't sometimes I see people even with like $10 products where they're running around trying to find these affiliates and I'm like, you'll actually make more, when Amazon to UNF, they give you a 10 X commission because you also get paid for. Right. So Speaker 1 00:20:42 Yeah, yeah, yeah. The muscles of upselling and things like that as well. Okay. So, um, so just give us, give her a little bit of, uh, uh, give us a little bit of a flavor of your last event. So like, what was some of the, the, the, the tactics or the best nuggets that kind of really stood out for you in the last event? Speaker 2 00:21:01 Yeah, so I, I mixed the immense of a little bit just because I do all the recordings and I know the people, most of the people pretty well. So I, I do mix it up a little bit who spoke when and so on, but, um, I, I definitely, I think the last event, so let me, let me take a few. So definitely the first event we have was, uh, sort of Kyle will fund very much his way of, of doing his reverse silos. And so on was something that was very interesting and the whole way of sort of tying it around them and really using that effectively is something we have tested with a lot of success. Right. I think there's a lot to reset again, 80 20 does a lot to be set for just make a ton of relevant internal links and you know, that book. Speaker 2 00:21:52 Um, however, uh, sometimes there's definitely things that are, that are better than that, right. Um, we have, uh, Brandon Tali actually went through his, uh, his team at BB speed fix, basically do a speed up to my station. He went through literally the whole process of how to do it. So again, if you want to be ineffective and waste your time on that, Brandon's presentation is absolutely amazing. You could also just pay him a couple of hundred bucks to get the team to do it for you, but yeah, he loved those for what a solid, um, we have Gerald talking, Gerald spieling, talking a bit about automation, uh, which I think was also super interesting, just how to automate your processes and, uh, particularly stuff with Excel sheets and even simple things like macros and stuff like that can often fall for SEO is can often help you cut a lot of time off some very repeatable processes. Speaker 2 00:22:53 Right. Um, so that was definitely a big one as well. Um, always loved talking with Lomas as well. And he was talking about how to avoid Google penalty kind of links to go for them, particularly if you are doing links in house, uh, Dallas, definitely, uh, uh, an amazing conversation. Again, I tend to just pay him a couple of hundred dollars to tell me what links to a move on to the lab, but you could also, uh, yeah. Uh, I mean, if you, if you are acquiring links, definitely his stuff was, was excellent to list. And so, and then it stays at McMurdo, always fricking amazing talks about like link building and PR and all that kind of stuff, which she is amazing to listen to every time she speaks, she's, uh, lots of good stuff. And then lastly, we had a Tim brown who was talking a lot about, uh, content and it was, I forgot what the famous content forms called. Tim brown was sharing a lot of stuff about content and parts of built solid content pieces and useful process for actually doing solid research and really pushing that through analysis definitely learned a lot from that as well. Speaker 1 00:24:08 Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. I didn't, um, yeah, we work quite a lot with Rick low-mass as well. And I, I didn't, uh, yeah, we, we painted these stuff for us and, um, but yeah, I didn't hear her session. So, you know, I, I guess one of the questions I was going to ask you further down the road, but like, we can probably cover here. We were talking about Rick, like, did he talk about like, you know, planning forward for like, you know, how do I, how do I just like remain or try to remain? You can never guarantee in Google's good books in regards of updates, not necessarily penalties, but kind of just updates as well. Like you might have get a penalty, but you might get affected by an update. So it was there any competition. Right. And that I would say Speaker 2 00:24:48 Indirectly because basically his focuses is trying to figure out what all links worked and which ones sometimes schedule Trump. Yeah. Now the point is, if your advisor links sometimes get you in trouble, you're obviously more, less likely to get penalized either manually or collectively. Right. So I was saying directly, uh, obviously, yeah. And he does talk a little bit about the future proving as well, but, but I think that the main focus for me at least is really understanding, you know, what works, what does not work. And from that perspective, what will it make sense to do? Speaker 1 00:25:22 Right. Okay, cool. So, um, in terms of, you know, going forward, uh, w did you know that SEO changes every few years? That's your difference? What it was two years ago? Like, do you have any kind of view on kind of what we should be, uh, I know, prepare ourselves for like, looking forward to in the next, in the coming years? Like, do you have any kind of view on that? Speaker 2 00:25:50 So I'd say number one is I don't plan 10 years ahead with SEO, both because it changes. And also because I don't know what it will look like to be here in 10 years, by the way, I'm just saying, I definitely don't plan anything else I have. So what I tend to do is I look at the current trends, I believe the right thing to do is use what works right now. And yeah, there's some things that works extremely well. Right. And then I would say probably like, I mean, some of the strategies that, that apparently stopped working a few years ago, it was still for me the best. So, so working with expired domains and option domains and stuff, they still work so incredibly well. I think, I think there's probably no better time than now collection utilize those, uh, as much as you possibly can, because at some point they might stop by, but at the moment that it just gives such an unfair advantage. Speaker 1 00:26:56 Again, you probably don't even realize, but yeah, you're absolutely talking. So everything you're saying is like exactly what we're, we're on at the moment where if we don't stop talking about experts, wines on our podcast. And, uh, we, uh, we actually source, uh, domains for our clients, but also just generally our auction ones that are gonna work well, I haven't got a pity about history or anything like that for, for, and sell them on our site. So it's some of the weirdest going on about all the time, because we've just seen like incredible success with them. And, uh, uh, and like I say, it is, is like an unfair advantage. So, um, yeah. So, um, <inaudible>, you've used or are using expired domains with your, with your portfolio of sites that you're working on as well, obviously. Yeah, I called you, Speaker 2 00:27:43 No, I mean, it's so in fairness we, uh, so I, I w one of the things I do is I run a big outsourcing company and probably at the peak around 2016, we were building around 15, 16,000 PBMs a week. Well, um, primarily for clients, but we were building, I walked up. So we, we have a lot of experience building PBMs and so on. Right. And by the way, PBN still works extremely well. Um, <inaudible> thing is that the game have changed a little bit. Right. You need to understand a little bit more of what you're doing, and you need to make sure you understand how to actually activate the power and so on, but, but generally it's still, it's still works extremely well. Right. So a lot of the time, yeah. I mean, we, we still do a lot with expired domain. So often domains obviously have a benefit, um, in, in many cases, but, you know, obviously there's also a cost difference, right? Speaker 2 00:28:44 So if you can get the same amount of domain power for about a fourth or a fifth of the cost for an expired domain, you know, you can, you can basically afford to be wrong four or five times for the same price. Right? So, uh, there's something to be said, but whether you either, uh, but most of it is just, I mean, there are some ideal guide on how to use both expired and orchard domains, how to make sure you set them up first and get them checked out. But basically nowadays, like, even if you end up doing 3 0 1, redirect with them, you don't get a penalty in my experience, you don't get a penalty. If it doesn't work, you just don't get a benefit. Right. So the main thing is just figuring out first, if a domain, if it actually starts ranking, like if you put the domain up and put content on it, et cetera, then let's just start ranking by itself. And if it starts running, because it had a bunch of links, then, you know, typically it will bring quite a bit of value. So when you build a brand new site on it or your trail one at, or whatever you do at the value is step. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:29:50 Yeah. For sure. So, yeah, I mean, we only really worked with option domains. Um, but in terms of expired domains, are you talking about ones that kind of just didn't make it to option that had been dropped and you're picking them up, or are you, how are you pal you pick, how do you pick up your expired domains? Speaker 2 00:30:07 Honestly, it doesn't matter. Uh, I mean the success rate obviously is higher if the just dropped, but reality is most of them work just as well. Um, again, in my experience. Um, so I, I, I S I, I see them all work work really well. Right. Do you still, I mean, it basically comes down to when, when PBN sorta we're up in the air about 18, that was a lot of this like PBN testing and all this kind of often, you're kind of doing the same thing when you buy expired domains, but honestly, even option domains. I mean, sometimes Google will put you into a certain vertical and, you know, if you'd take a domain that used to be a fish restaurant and turn it into a fishing website, like, you know, 90% of the time it would probably work really well, but just sometimes it just won't rank it fishing content, because Google has put you into this, you are restaurants. And so, so again, like all of them, you kind of have to test a little bit, but, uh, yeah, Speaker 1 00:31:12 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, yeah. That's exactly one of the examples we give about a restaurant as well. Like yeah. It doesn't always fit. We stay, we stay away mostly for, for that, from that kind of stuff. Because from, from restaurants and businesses, local businesses, cause they have like a lot of local business kind of links, but things that do work well, time and time again, we see things like people, uh, businesses that have like a, used to be a golf course, a golf course domain generally that's really well as a, as a golf club reviews, informational type site straight after. So it depends where you are some reason we still, we steer clear restaurants specifically because there just seems to be an issue sometimes. But yeah, things like that, like they just work and it's just kind of knowing that and knowing what to look out for, I think, Speaker 2 00:31:59 Yeah, a lot of the time, if you do use the domains, it's also about knowing how to sort of twist them a little bit because you, you, you, you can actually work with those at the restaurant specifically. We do use quite a few up just because they're always relative to achieve and no one picks them up and all that good stuff, so you can work with them, but it definitely takes a little bit of effort to kind of twist, to focus on in one salon. Speaker 1 00:32:23 Yeah. I mean, how'd you go about sourcing your expired domains, um, is that through, uh, how, how how'd you, how'd you find them? Speaker 2 00:32:31 I mean, so, so waste are all expired domains. We typically get off a fuel sources. So one, we both have some people who, where we picked them up just from databases and so on. I mean, they expired domains.net with, even though there's a billion people looking at those, we still get a few domains that are relatively decent once in a while. Um, I would typically buy a lot from SEL, but DOMEX, they are great provider. They have a huge, huge inventory. Yeah. Uh, so that's for expired domains. It's typically the once, um, for the option one, we have a few sources as well. Um, uh, oldest from auction domain <inaudible> is obviously huge, but they really handle the domains extremely well. Um, also a site called authority rush. I think they're both auction and some expired domains, but they are also, um, super valuable and, uh, Helen my system. Yeah. And yeah, generally, generally my experience is it's w w we basically have one person who try and stay on top of all these different demand platforms and check them on a weekly basis. So what typically happens as we we're operating certain issues, and every time you, if you find something in those niches, um, it kind of alarms us, and then we take a look at them, Speaker 1 00:33:58 Make sense. Awesome. So you really have a good, good eye. They're really good to start talking a little bit, a little bit on the more, the management kind of side of kind of what you do. Um, because you know, a lot of the people that are listed this podcast, a lot of people are, you know, in our audience are people sort of printers that are kind of building sites out. They might have one site, they might have a portfolio of sites, but generally, you know, especially once you get up to the portfolio engineer managing a lot of sites, you kind of start thinking about building a team, and that might be a keyword research person, some content writers, somebody start to do the uploading. It might be a bunch of different people. And it'd be really good to touch a little bit about kind of how you kind of go about organizing, managing the processes that are involved in managing kind of small teams in that way too, to build sites. Speaker 2 00:34:46 Yep, totally. So generally, I mean, people manage members as often the same, right? So it's often a case of making sure that you, that you put the right people into white seats. First of all right. So, uh, personally, I'm with my training and I spent a lot of time talking about personalities of people. So, uh, every, everyone is born with certain natural character traits, right? So some people are, and most SEOs for example, tend to be very, very detailed oriented, right? So they love learning around a spreadsheet, some data they can't get enough of learning. And again, as I mentioned, I got a lot of SEOs. I'm not very good at executing. So if you look at most SEOs, they fall into that kind of bucket. That the problem is a lot of times they expect everyone else to be them. So very often they go out and recruit people and they don't understand that they don't have the same, uh, eye for details right now. Speaker 2 00:35:44 And only, only about 25% of the world population are a niche detail-oriented and probably about five, 10% have the amount of detail and citation that, that most shipper SEOs have. Right? So you need to know what you're looking for from a personality perspective, more than anything. And that's always where I start, because that is most businesses, most companies that is where things tend to go wrong, right? Because if you get the wrong people on board initially, I mean, you, you can have the best intentions in the world, but if it's not the right people, it's not going to work. Right. So starting with the people with the right type of personality is, is absolutely key. The next step is really around making sure that you have a solid management framework, right? So that means, you know, you're doing meetings on a regular basis. So my framework is very simple. Speaker 2 00:36:41 You have to meet with everyone that works directly for you every single week, 30 minutes, right? And that also forced you to actually build teams and build hierarchy. If you staff hiring a lot of people, because if you try and manage people, 20 people that report to you, all of them, you will find them during 30 minutes a week, but each one of them is still the best investment you can ever do. But, uh, it will take up so much of your time that your false flags, they have a layer of managers in between. Right? So, so the, the first and most important piece of my framework is, is having a solid meeting framework, uh, both for team meetings. And for one-to-one meeting with people within your team, that report directly to you at the same pieces, it's around delegation and really how to get delegation, right? Speaker 2 00:37:30 Again, most SEO's with their personality tend to delegate tasks instead of responsibilities. So they're like, here's the seven buttons you click to get this resolved, we'll do it right. But they're often even if they explain the purpose, the problem is they're not giving people responsibility. And that means that as an individual, most people, they don't feel trusted. They feel like that is pressing buttons and they don't give a shit. Right. So if you want people to care, you need to actually give them responsibility. You need to make them responsible for the outcome, for the results, and that's the way to go about it. Right. So, uh, that that's not always easy, but, um, it, you have to do it if you want to be successful, that is the one way to do it. Right. So that's that, that's typically the focus. Um, so yeah. Speaker 1 00:38:23 Okay. Very cool. It's really hard though. Like getting a team together when you're just starting out and you're building a website, you're trying to get people from maybe up work and places like that. Obviously you're the, nobody's going to care about your site more, as much as you do. And especially when you're not actually employing these people, generally, most people are just kind of using them as a free, in a freelance kind of capacity. So trying to get these kinds of people together, like the reason that these website builders that our company was born was because of our frustration out of them. And I have liked even working with other agencies like that. They just did not. They okay, sure. I care about my website more than you do, but I want at least a certain level of kind of expertise and kind of interest and which we just thought it's just doesn't exist. Speaker 1 00:39:08 Like, is it a unicorn? And that's why we, we started the company because we w we want it to be like an agency that cares. And like, we actually give that level of professionalism that you were going to meet a certain bar for you, uh, to make sure we get the hand. Um, I, yeah. I don't know why it doesn't exist because it definitely exists. There's definitely SEO companies that exist out that work with businesses out there in the world that kind of, that are at that level where the, you know, th th that do a great job, but kinda in our kind of a content publishing world that just wasn't that same, that, that, that same professionalism, it's kind of wild. And, uh, Speaker 2 00:39:44 A lot of, a lot of the time it's focused. So a lot of the time SEL is focus on cost instead of ROI. And that is two very different concepts. Again, the biggest challenge for most SEO's is they're not great at business, right? Our business is about ROI, right? That, that is the core essence of business. If you're not providing us all our life with what you do, it doesn't work. The problem is if you always want the cheapest, you're not always going to get the best results. Right. And the key thing is that, I mean, again, I'm running an ad for the company. Like many times people come in like, oh, you know, I want to pay two bucks an hour and I want to awesome developer. It doesn't work like that. It just doesn't work like that. Right. Um, so the whole thing is that that's always a mix between price and quality, but so the way I operate, like I used the world, I mean, I've traveled everywhere. Speaker 2 00:40:41 I've been everywhere. And I hire people all over the world, every continent, and basically there's certain types of roles, certain type of tasks or certain type of places, right? Like to hire a developer. The first place I look at is your prime. And now there's lots of great Russians, a lot of grid like developers and Serbia and Croatia and so on. But when I need a developer, I go live in your product, but that's just the place for development is that it's the way it's done the best developers in the world, but it's just where the ROI makes so much sense for a lot of startups. Right? If I need a simple process, task executioners, we always use the Philippines. They are amazing about, they don't get bought like a lot of best students. If you asked them to go and, you know, build outreach lists everyday for six months, they will go absolutely mentally crisp. Speaker 2 00:41:34 Whereas in the Philippines, they, they absolutely don't mind those very repeatable tasks. We'll do a shift for people, right? So again, it's understanding what fits, what, um, and, and really understand where do you get the best value. So again, we've generally found that the best value in terms of content writers, generally, again, this always successful, but generally is hiring native speakers. Because for us, we w I, again, I've been on the ground, the Philippines, we have 140, 150 staff or something like that. We have a couple of very good writers, but the challenge is that most of those extremely good writers can actually get paid more working on a local company because they have the skillset they have. And the thing is, if I have to pay them what they are worth and local rates and pay the same as I could get a decent local writer, a decent native writer for, and everything else being equal, they have certain cultural things that they will understand that just generally may style slightly better. So again, it doesn't mean you can't build a sole team of writers and full beings, and people, our friends will do that. And you can, but it's just from my perspective, from my experience, the ROI of, of trying to do it, that's time of, to effort you need to put in just does not make it worth it for me. So I always find native last, right. Speaker 1 00:42:58 Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. Once again. And I think, um, it's actually really easy for Google to understand just even slightly, you know, you can get a good writer, but just those slight nuances in the language and just the grammar and things like that, just slightly tight things that makes a native English. Speaker 2 00:43:18 For me, it's not a, it's not even a Google thing for me, it's a conversion thing. I mean, the point of most pages on a website is to, you want to use it to do something, buy something, sign up for something, do something. And the challenge is that it doesn't take a lot of wrong words. It just take a lot of them. We have sentences for them to lose a little bit of trust. Right. Um, and yeah, and, and for me though, is it's just as much training and development. And I mean, one of my other friends, Kevin Mang, his specialized training writers and so on. Right. And, and again, like if he needs to put in 10 times the time to get a Filipino to the same level, that's getting a to now, even though they might be cheaper on a monthly basis, it's just, it's not really worth the effort. Speaker 2 00:44:04 Right. And for me, like again, when most SEO's go wrong is they focus on the cost, not the ROI. And the question is, how can you get a solid output very quickly, uh, at a, at a relative, uh, at a cost that makes sense. Now, again, does sometimes if you're building really cheap websites, selling very cheap products and something, you might not have the money. Right. But, but in most cases in, I got an affiliate SEO that we do the ROI rate. Right. So the whole thing is if you invest a little bit more in content it's generally worth, right. Speaker 1 00:44:42 Yep. Yeah. I totally agree. There's that, there's a whole thing as well, where, you know, if you, if you're paying somebody a poor, a lower rate, then there's any, there's only so much, they are going to be able to do for you to, to, to achieve, but to get results at all. They're just not going to get results. Whereas if you're paying a little bit more, it's, it doesn't mean they're necessarily better, but as an agency owner or somebody who does SEO, if I've got, if I'm getting a retainer of 4,000 a month versus 2000 a month, then I'm much more likely to succeed because I can invest more time in that and get results. So, yeah. Speaker 2 00:45:17 And that's it. That's exactly why I coach agency owners. That is the number one thing, right? Like I always use the simple example. If you need a table built and you have two carpenters come in, once they would cost a hundred bucks at once, they will cost 500 bucks. Everyone assumes that the 500 bucks guy will just be a better quality. I'll be a fan of tape. Now, in most cases, it is exactly the same table being built. Right. And best thing about SEO. So the problem is if the a hundred bucks guy, let's say he accidentally breaks a piece of wood or something, and he comes to you and say, oh, you know, I actually, you need to pay X amount more because I need to buy an increase of what was the $500 guy I've already built in. So it's same. Every, every web development agency out there, they give you an estimate and you know, that the price will never be their estimate, but likely 2, 3, 4, 5 Xs, right? Speaker 2 00:46:11 Because there's always stuff they haven't thought about, always other things. Whereas if you're charged five times, the amount of money up front, you will have less clients, but you kind of full up to make the, the, they were what you like ideal service, much, much better. And the thing is, if you charge a little money and don't deliver people on happy, because you charged them a lot of money, if you charge more money and you're actually deliver, people are very happy. So you will generate more customers by charging more money, everything else being equal. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:46:43 Yeah, totally agree. And it applies to like, not just like saying SEO, like in any business, but also I think about it in the same way. I think of think of time in the same at the time, the same, I was trying to talk to my team about, you know, that under promise over deliver, like, don't, don't say that if you think you can get it on tomorrow, don't say he can get it on tomorrow. So you got to get it done on one day. And then when, when you do deliver it tomorrow, the client is ecstatically happy. They were disappointed initially, but they happy. Cause you got it early. If you say you're gonna get it tomorrow, but you deliver it Monday, they're pissed off for your service. And they're pissed off with you irregular. And it works with time and money at the same. And, Speaker 2 00:47:21 And for most of those, you also run services, right? Like the key thing is that, that what that really bad at generally is communication. Right? But the thing is that you have all these jokes, but SEL appliance and how horrible they are, honestly, the clients, aren't horrible. It's typically the SEOs that don't know how to communicate. Don't learn how to set expectations. And that's why applies to an app, right? Like a client don't just wake up in the morning and want to be a total asshole. Yeah. But I don't know anyone that wakes up in the morning and say, I want to be a total asshole. People are being an asshole to you. It's timid because you have set them an expectation that they're not being met. Now. Sometimes you can say, oh, I didn't promise I didn't do this. But the whole thing is if the customer has an expectation, honestly, it doesn't matter what you told them. If you haven't set an expectation for what you deliver, how you deliver it, how you communicate that delivery it's on you. Speaker 1 00:48:19 Yeah. I think it's, I think it's magnified a little bit in SEO. Well, because w because like, uh, it to, to a customer, it can be a bit of a dark art. So they don't really know what you're doing to get there, to get the results necessarily half the time. Uh, whereas, you know, if there's a compensate going back to that, they know that you're what you're doing to build that table and understand the process to a certain extent some, and so I think very quickly, if they are not sure what's happening and they therefore the level of trust, isn't quite there. It's very easy for them to switch to like angry customer or because they're not really sure what they're getting. Um, but again, it comes down to communication. Right? Exactly. It's Speaker 2 00:48:57 Still communication, right? Like, to be better clear to the customer, what do you deliver? When do you deliver it? What should they expect? What do you expect? They will see. And, you know, even like even set up comms, like, you know, we're going to do X, Y, C you know, this is the minimum outcome we expect, there's this sort of medium uptime and business, a top outcome, you know, we've, we've got to do what we can, but this is kind of the expectation out we're, we're seeing. Right. That's what we expect to have more than three months or six months or 12 months or whatever. Right. Yeah. Um, so yeah. Okay. Speaker 1 00:49:31 So I guess, uh, one thing for, we kind of, kind of wrap it up, I guess, in terms of like processes and kind of managing kind of processes specifically around, you know, talking to our audience here, it's specifically around building sites, we've got like a writer and then about maybe a, an editor and, uh, you know, what kind of processes, how do you run those? You know, what, what technology, what tools do you use on what process did you run to kind of get that kind of a streamlined and as efficient as possible? Speaker 2 00:50:00 Yeah, so typically, I mean, we played around with a lot of things. I think a tool like click up for example is great. We have actually moved back. I mean, we are basically using following certain processes. We are using Google, so Google sheets, and we have a Google sheet with old processes and they're all documented in Google docs. Um, so that's how we do from a process standpoint. Now, how we document them is typically written explanation followed by a video. So basically every single one and it's broken down to small steps. So if we ever, I, the problem as typically people would call it a half an hour video of how to do a whole process, but then a tiny piece in the middle changes. And then they're like, oh yeah, by the way, this tiny people in the middle change. Right. But what we do is the other way around, we do a lot of videos that I've met a man and a half, three minutes or whatever. And if something changes, it's not very difficult for the person who's responsible for that process to go on record a new video. Speaker 1 00:50:57 Yeah. It makes sense. It makes sense. Speaker 2 00:50:59 So that's, that's typically how we do it. And, uh, yeah. Speaker 1 00:51:03 Cool. Excellent. So, um, in terms of the SEO mastery, uh, event that you had, uh, before the retreat, did, did you, are they, are those recordings available somewhere for people to go and grab? Or Speaker 2 00:51:18 So there aren't right now, but they will be, I can probably say so basically when we open the next event. So you're connected go to SEO mastery, summit.com and sign up right now. Um, when we opened the next event, we will actually give people opportunity to buy the previous two events, videos of a relatively low cost. Um, so they, they will be available. Yes. Okay. Speaker 1 00:51:43 Excellent. Okay. Well, thanks so much for your time today, Matt Mattson, I've really enjoyed speaking with you. Um, like where else should people go if they want to hear more about you and Speaker 2 00:51:55 Yep. Um, Matt sing us.com is my website. And that's all about management, coaching and consulting, uh, as do a lot of podcasts, I do typically a hundred podcasts a year. So basically everywhere. I also have a management podcast myself. So, uh, also some to listen to, and else I contributed quite a bit in various SEO, Facebook groups and so on. And I'm sure I'm already at 5,000 friends on Facebook, but, uh, yeah, you can definitely follow me. And, uh, there's also a great page for SEO masters. So I'm in this one. So if you love free content. Speaker 1 00:52:34 Excellent. Okay. Thanks, Matt. Well, enjoy the rest of your day and thanks again for coming on the show. Speaker 2 00:52:41 Likewise, have a good one. Speaker 1 00:52:43 Thanks again for tuning in, and I hope you enjoyed the show. If you're listening to the podcast version of this episode, please subscribe on iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts, please rate and review. As this will allow us to grow our audience and create more shows like this one. If you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe to the channel and click on the bell to be the first to know about any new episodes that we release until the next episode. Goodbye.

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