Speaker 1 00:00:09 Are you ready to get serious about building content sites and building a profitable business online. Welcome to the niche website builders podcast. We bring you the latest field, tested tips, tricks and strategies for building a profitable online asset. We interview industry experts, share customer success stories and reveal our own experiences. Working on hundreds of sites to inspire and motivate you to make something happen. Let's do this.
Speaker 0 00:00:41 Hi and welcome to this week's episode of the niche website, build a podcast and YouTube channel. Uh, this week's guest is Don Wells. Uh, if you've been in the space for any time at all, you've definitely heard of the name. He used to run human proof design before he sold that business. And he's now the founder and he runs a business called on folio, uh, on folio or doing some super interesting things in the online asset investment space. I'd actually hoping to take the company public issue and in the process, uh, raise millions of dollars to continue the acquisition of web properties. So in today's chat, we talked a little bit about, uh, how we scaled up improved design and then eventually sold that. And then we talk a lot more in depth about, uh, on folio as a business model, how it works, how they diversify in how they are reducing risk across their portfolio. And then finish up by, uh, where I asked all his input and thoughts on things like Google updates, recent Google updates, and also web core vitals. So I hope you enjoy this episode. I hope you get lots out of it. I really find doing a lot of fun doing it. So let's get into it.
Speaker 1 00:01:48 This episode is brought to you by niche website builders, an agency dedicated to helping people just like you build profitable content sites, niche website builders are the hands-off content site marketing agency. You always wished existed. It's run by content site marketers for content site marketers, and they help both investors and individuals alike build profitable online properties. They provide a fully outsourced approach to content creation, link building and done for you. Website builds the same approach they use on their own six-figure portfolios. For example, their content packages come with a proprietary keyword research process are written by in-house native English speakers formatted using templates proven to convert and uploaded to WordPress with affiliate links added so that all you need to do is hit the publish button. Check them [email protected]
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Speaker 0 00:02:55 Hey, Dom, how sales? Yeah. Good. Thanks. Going well over here.
Speaker 2 00:03:01 You're in Taiwan, right? Yeah. That's right. Taipei type of city. How long have you been, how long have you lived there for, uh, if you don't include breaks where I went back to England or went to Canada briefly? Um, well, since 2008. So what's that like 13 years.
Speaker 0 00:03:20 Wow. Nice women kind of, did you go?
Speaker 2 00:03:24 Uh, we did. So this was my wife and I, um, seven months in Montreal and then three months in Vancouver.
Speaker 0 00:03:32 Nice. I love Canada. I, uh, I did a year of my degree in Canada and then loved it so much. I went back for another year when I finished. Like I'd like to move. Yeah. So, um, thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule. I know you're a busy guy to be on our podcast today and then we've got some awesome topics to cover and what we get into that the whole, um, I just want to ask, cause I ask everyone is, do you remember how you made your, your first ever dollar online and kind of when that was like how far back that was?
Speaker 2 00:04:04 Yeah, I do actually, partly because I've been asked a couple of times before, so it's like, it keeps, it keeps it fresh. Um, I don't know if it was my first daughter, actually it was my first sale was so one of the, one of the very first niche websites I built was about stopping smoking and I was promoting, um, Alan cars, the easy way to stop smoking. And I think it was like 10 quid or something like that. So the first commission they got was like 60 P or something like that. Um, so it worked out as roughly a dollar and the exchange rates. Um, so it was, it was basically a book on Amazon was the first dollar that was in a way, uh, it was, it was frustrating because it took me quite a lot of effort to get that sale. And when it came through, it was like, wow, I got a say yes, a massive endorphin hit, but also, well, I did all that effort for just a dollar, like how much effort am I going to have to do for like a thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 00:05:07 Um, but that in turn made me realize that this wasn't the best niche to go after. So I abandoned that site and started another one. So it actually was pretty good because it, it helped me start to understand a little bit about like, is it worth all this effort just for like a small commission, maybe I should start promoting something higher end and, and so on. I think, I think getting a hundred dollars in a single month was the first real validation for me that I can do this. Cause I think you can fluke a dollar online easily, but a hundred dollars. Like it's like, okay, this is, this is real
Speaker 0 00:05:43 Nice. Was that long after you made your, your $1?
Speaker 2 00:05:48 Yeah, it was probably about four or five months. It took a while to get to like a hundred and then 500 and then a thousand, but yeah, it was a few months. Okay,
Speaker 0 00:05:58 Awesome. I always love hearing about how people made their, their first dollar online. So that's really cool. Okay. So there's, I'm going to break this down into, into two sections, the first one being smaller than the rest. Um, and mainly because this is really interesting to me because we're on a similar journey. So I just want to cover off a little bit about human proof designs. Obviously you, you were the founder and you exited who improved designs a couple of years back. Um, how did you, how did you start, who will put design? What was the catalyst for, for starting that business?
Speaker 2 00:06:33 I had had a website previously that was getting a lot of traffic and it wasn't really making any money. It was, uh, I just stumbled across some keywords, like 20 questions to ask a girl you like or something like that. So I put together this bare bones website that just had a bunch of articles, like 10 questions to ask your crash, uh, 30 questions to ask your husband. Um, and it got loads of traffic. It ranked really easily because it's very low competition. It was getting about 30,000 views a month. Um, which was crazy because I'd never really had any kind of traffic before. And this was before things like media vine and ad thrive. And so I put ad sense on it, but it was making like, I don't know, less than a dollar a day. So it was really frustrating having all this traffic.
Speaker 2 00:07:24 And I tried doing things like affiliating with dating programs, um, just loads of different stuff. And in the end I just went, you know what, maybe I can just sell it on flipper. So I listed it on flipper for a thousand dollars and someone bought it. Um, which for me was huge because up until that point, I'd probably made like a couple hundred dollars. Um, and I thought, well, how can I do more of that? How can I start these kind of starter sites and sell them on flipper for like a grand or something? Um, so I, I spent a lot of time immersing myself in flipper and one of my friends was encouraging me. He was like, yeah, you should see if you can replicate that. And I said to him, it's annoying. There's all these kinds of garbage turnkey sites on flipper that people are buying for like $200.
Speaker 2 00:08:10 And they're just selling like social media share. This was back before Facebook cut down on that. They were like selling fake likes and stuff. And they were just selling the same cookie countless sites over and over again that were saying stuff like, um, Oh, this keyword gets a million searches. So if you buy this website, you're going to be a millionaire. It's going to be easy. And I was just complaining about it. And my friend said, well, why don't you sell legit sites that, you know, you've already done it once you can build a site, put some basic articles on it, do some keyword research and all of that. And then, you know, it was like a business in a box and you can sell that for $200 or something. So I thought that was a great idea. And I tried doing that and the problem was I was on flipper.
Speaker 2 00:09:00 I was competing with those, those basically scammers, you know, flippers, a legit site, but they used to have a lot of garbage on it. Um, to be fair, they've done a lot of, uh, good since then cleaning up all of that. But, um, I was competing with these guys. I was like, Hey, buy this website, do some work, do some SEO. After five months, you might be making like a hundred bucks a month, which I thought was a good deal. But next to me was someone else being like, buy this thing for $200, do no work and you'll be a millionaire. So no one was buying my sites. Um, actually that's not true one or two people did, but I realized I needed to get off flipper and I should sell the sites on my own website, but in order to do that, I needed to start doing content marketing and all of that stuff.
Speaker 2 00:09:48 Um, but the reason I wanted to do it on my own site was because I realized I could educate people into the value of the sites. So I just started blogging about like how to build an Amazon affiliate site or how to structure a review article, uh, how to, you're just basic like affiliate marketing, how to articles. And then I would be like, here's how you should set up an Amazon affiliate website, by the way, you can just buy one of mine if you'd prefer. And so that's kind of how, how it, how it all began and how it started back in 2014.
Speaker 0 00:10:25 Okay. Interesting. So that's, that's all you were doing then at the start was just, uh, just the sites. No, no additional services, just creating the sites, ready to sell the business in the box, essentially.
Speaker 2 00:10:37 Yeah. Yeah. I started out doing websites. Then I started doing content because I realized people needed additional content. And then I thought about adding and loads of stuff, but someone gave me some advice saying you should niche down. It's better, you know, you should stay me. Um, and as we scaled, we, we got better at what we were doing and I had a team and I had capacity. So suddenly I realized I should add on other services. So I started doing PBN links, um, more article packs, uh, just various other things and some training because we had a bigger team, so we didn't need to stay Meesha anymore. Yeah. And it's just easier to, a lot of competitors started coming in as well and competitors, you know, they are what they are, but when we were just selling these done for your sites and everyone else was selling them for your sites, we realized, well, we can't get all the customers anymore. So instead a good way to scale is to sell more to our existing customers. And that sounds a bit cynical, but it was actually really those, those customers were buying the services anyway and they wanted to buy from us because they trusted us. So we were like, you know what, we, we can add, um, we can sell you articles. We can help you with your backlinks because we've got a team now. Uh, so it kind of just evolved like that.
Speaker 0 00:12:02 Okay. And how did you, because obviously you scale up business to think in 2018, over, over a million dollars in revenue for that year. I'm like, that sounds like a massive leap in just a couple of short years from selling done few businesses in a box for a couple of hundred to, to over a million in sales. Like what, how did you go from, from nothing to that in, in such a short space of time?
Speaker 2 00:12:28 Yeah, I think it was like 2017. We did 600 K and then 2018. We did a million in 20, 2015. Uh, I don't even know if I remember, but it was probably like 300 K or something. It kind of just happened all at once. Really. It was like a year and a half of no real growth or just like very slow growth. And then suddenly you become big enough where everybody's heard of you. Everybody's talking about you. I did a lot of guest posting. I started going on podcasts. Um, we had, we had a bit of a breakthrough, I guess, where, I don't know, maybe it's a little bit secret sauce, but I think everyone does it in the space now anyway, so it's not really a secret, but the day that I, everything changed for human for designers was the day I realized if we put earning estimates on our website listings, um, people would see the value in them.
Speaker 2 00:13:27 And there was a website called, um, I don't even remember what it was called, but it was like a calculator where you input your keywords and the estimated searches and, um, what you expected the click-through rate to be. And, uh, what, um, what the commission was and what the percentage was and everything. And then it would say, Oh, based on this data, we think this niche could make 5k a month or three K a month or whatever. So up until that point, I had been selling custom sites mostly because people didn't see the value in the done for you sites. So the done-for-you sites were where I actually picked a niche and it was like, you know, like across boats, here's the website. Whereas custom would be like someone would come to me with a niche. Um, part of that was because people were like, I don't know if I want the crossbow site or the tiny home site.
Speaker 2 00:14:25 Like, it doesn't mean to me. And part of it was because I couldn't, pre-build the site, you know, I didn't have much money. I was bootstrapping. So I couldn't just pay for 20 sites to be creative and hope that they would sell. Um, so actually there were two breakthroughs and I did them at the same time. I think one was realizing if I put a screenshot on every niche site showing like, Hey, this site could make five K a month. If it gets, you know, all of its keywords, get to get to page one. And then I changed it. So people could pre-order the website as well. So instead of me building it, someone would buy it and I was up front about it, but someone would buy it. And when they bought it, I'd say, right, we're going to start working on your site.
Speaker 2 00:15:08 It's going to be ready in about four weeks, we went from selling one or two sites, um, a week to selling like, w I think we managed to get it to the point where 20 sites with sun out, in like a weekend. So the listings would go live every two weeks I'd list 20 sites on a Friday. And it was usually because I'm in Taiwan, I would list it at like 9:00 PM on a Friday, so that, uh, the Europeans and Americans were all awake and stuff. Um, and I had like people in the West coast getting up early to, to, to try and buy, which was crazy. So then I'd, I'd, I'd hit like, go, I'd send the email out to everyone and then I'd go and buy a beer, uh, because it was 9:00 PM and I'd come back like an hour later and be like, Oh, like five of the sites had gone already. And then, because they were selling out so quickly, we were able to put the prices up as well. So that thing was like the number one reason why, um, we, we made so much money so quickly was because we suddenly realized like, Oh, this, this will help people understand the potential of these websites. And by making them pre-order, I could get past the scaling problem because I'm taking the money up front. So that was, that was a life, life changing and business changing, uh, innovation, I guess.
Speaker 0 00:16:31 Yeah. Sounds good. Okay. That's, that's really interesting. Um, so you obviously don't came to the decision to sell. What was the, what was the catalyst for selling? Obviously, it sounds like it was doing very well. You'd had this business changing breakthrough and sales exploded. Why did you then want to sell the business?
Speaker 2 00:16:51 Um, it wasn't one thing. It was, you know, I sold it. It was about two years later, so things have been great and everything and things were still going well when I sold it, um, I personally was getting a bit tired of the whole just launch launch launch cycle. And I also was just ready to do something else. And as we'll probably talk about in a minute, I'd had the idea for on folio. And I was really in love with that idea. And I felt like I wanted to go after on folio. So human proof designs was holding me back and also I wasn't doing it justice and I had a team and everything. And so I thought, well, if I can sell human proof designs and all the team will keep their jobs and all my audience will, um, be taken care of and I can go off and do on folio.
Speaker 2 00:17:45 Then that seems like something I want to, I want to do. And it was the right decision because I think within a year, human proof designs had grown significantly after I left and on folio had grown to the point that it was making the same or more profit than human for designers was making. So, you know, both businesses grew because of that decision. And I was a lot happier because I just wasn't doing a business that I, I, you know, I felt like I was starting to resent the business because I just wasn't enjoying it anymore. Um, and it was nothing wrong with the business. It was just not what I wanted to do anymore.
Speaker 0 00:18:27 That makes sense. And I, and again, I read somewhere that you had the idea from 40 or like seven years prior to actually launching it. So this is tucked away in your mind and I guess thinking about it or thinking about it and revisiting, so you were probably thinking about this over, over as you were growing more and more dissatisfied with running, who improving, they're going all on folio. I can do this, I can do that. And I will tell him when he's on folio. I mean, it's a super interesting business model, but what is it in a nutshell?
Speaker 2 00:18:57 Yeah, that's actually not quite how it happened. I did have the idea seven years before. I think I even had the idea before human proof designs really took off, but then I forgot about it. So it wasn't seven years. Like I rediscovered the idea in about 2018 and I was like, I think this is a good idea. I think it has legs. And then I was like, Hey, I've had this idea before. Um, so the idea was basically, and this was, I remember, like in 2015, you know, something, I was having lunch with my wife and I said, you know, what would be a really good business would be there's people out there who want to buy a website. So they have money to invest. They want to buy websites off places like empire flippers, but they don't know how to run them and either how to run them, but I don't have the money to buy them.
Speaker 2 00:19:44 Uh, back then, I, you know, I didn't, um, so why can't I run these businesses for people? And then I was like the re and my wife was like, Oh, that sounds like it could work. You know? And, and I was like, the problem is, I'm just some dude living in Taiwan, I've got no track record. Um, I don't have experience investing in websites, myself and, you know, PR people buying people, sending me money for like a $500 tank tanky website, very different than someone trusting me with like $150,000 acquisition. Um, so I just forgot about it and was like, yeah, maybe in the future, if I've got more credibility. So then when I rediscovered the idea, because I've surveyed the human proof designs audience, I was like, is there anything else I can offer you? And someone said, basically that, um, I was like, wait a second.
Speaker 2 00:20:37 I've had this idea before, but, um, now I do have a track record. I've got social proof. People trust me, you know, I've been on entrepreneur, I've been on Mixergy. And, um, I'm a lot more, well, I'm not more trustworthy because I was always trustworthy, but, um, people can see that I'm trustworthy. So suddenly I was like, Oh, all the reasons why I didn't do it in 2015 don't exist anymore. And the market's grown and there's even more demand. So I just fired off some emails to human proof designs. So there was an overlap period where I started on folio about six months before I sold HPD, which was deliberate. I already knew I wanted to send HPD. Um, and I wanted both brands to exist. So any potential buyer would come and, and be aware of that. I didn't want someone to buy a human who designs. And then I start on folio and they're like, what are you doing? And they're not competing businesses, but it would have been a bit weird. Um, so I started it and I, you know, emailed or the human proof designs audience and was like, Hey, does anyone want this service? And quite a few people did. Um, so I just kind of ran with it. Um, and the rest is history.
Speaker 0 00:21:57 So, so you currently on your website currently says you've got 38 sites and the management doing about 4.2 million trailing 12 months in revenue, which, which is huge because it's only been what's his now three years. About three years.
Speaker 2 00:22:13 Yeah. I mean, I guess that's a little confusing. I should change it because the revenue is like, that's the revenue of all the websites. It's not like our revenue. So yeah. So the way it works is let's say there's someone buys a business, that's doing 10 K a month. They'll pay us like a management fee of say two K a month or something. So that revenue would be there 10 K. It wouldn't be like our two K. But, um, so our, our company revenue is probably, I think we did just under a million last year. Um, yeah, but so it's about a quarter of that. Um, so it's still, it's still huge considering how, like, it took me three or four years to get there the first time. And then I did it in my, my first full year really of running on folio. Um, but that's, that's just because I'm more experienced at business now. Um, but yeah, at our peak, we had about 45 sites that we're managing, but we scaled back a bit. We decided we'd rather manage fewer bigger websites than, you know, during, for like hundreds of smaller ones.
Speaker 0 00:23:18 So the, this is the two business models within sight on 49, because I know you recently launched your preferred share scheme where people buy, buy into, uh, the fund essentially, and they get paid a quarterly dividend, but is there also an aspect of the business where someone can bring your website? It sounds like, and you, can you manage that for them? Or, or is that not how it works?
Speaker 2 00:23:43 That did exist? Actually, that was the first service we launched. I thought it would be the most popular. Um, so when we launched, we had two services. One was, if you've got an existing portfolio or an existing website, we can run it for you. Um, and I thought that was going to be the most popular and it was popular, but I hated it, which I'll explain later. But, um, basically when someone owns a website themselves and they bring it to you, they're going to expect you to care about it as much as they do. And you can care about it, a great deal, but it's never going to be as much as they care about it. And then we were, we were charging people like kind of break even management fees and then 50% of growth. So if we didn't grow it, we just broke even.
Speaker 2 00:24:29 And then they were looking at us like, Hey, we're already paying you a management fee. Why can't we also, um, why do we need to pay you more money to grow the business? And so it created this kind of disconnect where they were resenting paying us and we were working for them for no profit. So that service actually didn't really suit how we were set up. So then the other service that we launched with was much better. And it was essentially someone would say like, Hey, I've got 50 K or a hundred K or sometimes even like 500 K, I want to buy a business off empire flippers or Effie international, any of the brokers. And I want you to run it for me in exchange for a management fee and a share of the growth. And that was a lot easier because I could say to people where you also need to give us a budget for growing it and they'd be like, yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 00:25:16 Because they were investors. And that was where we really scaled and people, a lot of real estate investors, for example, who wanted to get bigger returns, but didn't know, didn't know anything about running a business, they would, they would come to us. Um, and we do technically still offer that business, that service, but we turn most people away because, well, partly it's not worth our time. And partly because we really want to double down on what we're doing now, which is where the business evolved into. So throughout 2019, we were just evolving the business and growing and getting loads and loads of clients buying loads of websites. I think I bought something like 18 businesses off FAA international in 2019. Um, you know, they, they sent me flowers when my child was born, I guess the flowers were for my wife, but anyway, they sent us flowers.
Speaker 2 00:26:09 Um, and I bought a few FM heifers as well, a few of the other brokers. So we, you know, we, we basically were just like crushing it in, in 2019 just buying businesses every week. Um, and then 2020, I was like, this is cool. And we have a really good track record in that we maybe we buy 40 businesses and only two of them die. So that's like less than 10%. But then if you're that investor and it kind of sucks, you know? And so there might be a Google update comes around and like two went up 20 businesses kind of just ignored the update and two businesses just fell off the face of it. Yeah. Um, and so I was like that wasn't our fault. Really. It was just a Google update and it doesn't happen to many people, but you know, if someone's just bought a site for 50, okay.
Speaker 2 00:26:58 And that happens, it, it very uncomfortable, um, sucks for them big time. Um, and we would work for free or for a juice rate to get the site back up. And sometimes we could, and sometimes we couldn't, but it got me thinking, the only way to fail to make money in investing in websites is if your website goes to zero, because websites are very, they're actually very often compared to buying other assets. And like, if you want to buy Tesla stock, you have to pay something like 40 times earnings. Uh, whereas a website is like three times earnings. Um, and so very affordable. They can give a very good ROI, the only way to lose money as if the site diets, you don't, you don't even need to grow the website. As long as it just maintains, then you're going to get a great ROI.
Speaker 2 00:27:49 Um, yeah. So I started thinking, okay, is there a way to make it so that everyone shares the same pie? So instead of forcing investors to own 40 individual sites, they all own like a 40th of the whole portfolio. Um, and then, um, if one site goes down, it's fine because all the other sites have gone up or whatever. Um, some of my investors didn't like that because they, well, some people it's like a trust thing. Some people were like, no, I want to own the asset. I want it to be a hundred percent mine. I want to be in a fire. You if, if I don't like what you're doing, uh, so know that's fine. So we said, okay, well then you need to work with us on an individual basis. It's more risky, but okay. But others were like, yeah, I think that's a great idea.
Speaker 2 00:28:34 So then in my head it was, how are we going to do this? Are we going to do a fund? Which is what there's, I don't know how closely you follow the space for, there's quite a few funds springing up. Are we going to do something else? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And my conclusion was that I wanted to do a holding company. Part of that was because I felt like there's so much opportunity in the space. And if you have a fund, really, you're just a glorified money manager. Well, not even glorified that you're just managing other people's money and you're getting paid for it. But I wanted, I'm an entrepreneur. I wanted to have a business. Um, I wanted to build a media company, uh, you know, I love media properties, like morning brew or some of these very good websites. It's where they're just like, what I think is the future of media.
Speaker 2 00:29:23 Um, and I could see it is that happening with a PO with a holding company where we basically just own a bunch of assets and we work on all of them and we grow them. So we're kind of like general electric or Berkshire Hathaway or something, something like that. Um, and this is the short version. It took me months to really weigh up. And then I found out if you're a public company it's even better because anyone can buy your shares. They don't need to be accredited. They can sell your shares whenever they want. So there's no liquidity issue. No, one's locking up their money for you. Um, and you're going to be valued a lot higher. So if you buy a business for three times earnings, but you're trading at 10 times earnings, there's an arbitrage there because you're a public company. Um, so I basically said, okay, we're going to be a holding company.
Speaker 2 00:30:18 We sold 10% of on folio to various investors. And, um, we're using that money to buy some websites and to pay for the, the, the process of going public. And then where the preferred shares come in is our original plan was we're going to sell just equity in, on folio and buy websites with that. And then we'll sell more equity and on folio and buy more websites with that. But a lot of my existing audience said, well, are you going to pay any dividends? And we can get onto this question a bit later because I think you plan to. But, um, I said, no, there won't be any dividend because it just makes more sense. And any profit we make, whether it's from a sale or from the cashflow of the businesses, should get put back into the company to grow the company, even higher, just like the way most public companies don't issue a dividend.
Speaker 2 00:31:17 Um, but a lot of people said, well, I'm interested in this space for cashflow. So we said, okay, as well as the common shares, which are just like what you can buy and sell on the stock market, like, like Tesla shares, um, why don't we also issue preferred shares where the share doesn't increase in value over time. It just pays out a fixed dividend. And because websites are a bit riskier, we'll do a higher evident, but, um, it's also, uh, six dividends. So it's 12%. So, um, if someone say buys a hundred thousand dollars worth of our preferred shares, we'll pay them just 12 grand a year until they sell the shares to somebody else. Or until after five years, we have the option to buy the shares back. Um, and the idea behind that is if someone wants upside, they can buy our common shares when they're trading publicly.
Speaker 2 00:32:13 If they want cash flow, they can buy our preferred shirts. And what we'll do is just use that money to buy websites and grow them. And so, um, so yeah, it's the, the long story short is I feel like we've found a vehicle where we can invest in websites, um, build something significant over the next decade. And if people want to share that they buy shares, but if they're more interested in cashflow, 12% is quite frankly, 12% is a really good offer. It's ridiculously good. Like, you know, you stick the money in the bank, you make minus 1%. Um, um, but that being said, we've also limited the downside and we've because we're spreading all the money across our portfolio. If one particular website goes to zero, it shouldn't affect our ability to pay the dividends. Um, and then because we are going to be a public company or we're going to have a financial accounting and we're going to have audited financials. Um, and then, you know, the sec is going to be looking at everything we do. So that also takes a lot of the risk out because again, like online business, there's a lot of shady operators out there. So, you know, obviously I'm biased, but I think we've put together something which ticks almost every box for, for investors.
Speaker 0 00:33:38 Awesome. And I guess in theory, that means the bigger the company gets, the more diversified it gets and the less risky. So, uh, as you acquire more assets and, you know, if one fails and it's just a smaller piece of the bigger pie then, um, and we'll talk a little bit later because I think the types of businesses you buy you are buying or interest in as well, um, or that you're looking to acquire because they, they are very diversified and their actual businesses in their own rates. So you're essentially acquiring other businesses rather than just a, you know, a website that's about dogs, that's monetize with display ads, which I think is interesting. So as an investor into, on Forleo, you don't currently own any share in the website. You you'll just corny preferred share, which has no voting rights, or basically nothing apart from a dividend, or you can choose to buy common stock when it's listed publicly. And that gives you upside. And then you can, do you get voting rights then? Or what rights do you get with a common, with a common share?
Speaker 2 00:34:39 Yeah. Uh, technically the professors do have some voting rights, but because there's like legal requirements that they have some, but the voting rights preferred shares have is basically concerning preferred shares only. So if we want to make amendments to the preferred shares, or we want to, I think if we want to take on superior debt to the preferred shares, then preferred shareholders can vote on that, but that's all they can vote on. Whereas common shareholders, they get the same voting rights that any common shareholder gets. So they vote for the board of directors. Um, if there was a particularly, um, if we want to do something like a share split, or we want to, um, sell the business or, you know, any of these normal things that shareholders get asked to, to, to vote on them, they can do that. And so all the common shares one share has one vote, so it's, um, sort of standard stuff. Okay. Um,
Speaker 0 00:35:38 So, and, and so, and if you sell one of these websites, that's in the portfolio, I think you mentioned it, but that money just goes back into the group to buy more websites. Isn't, it's never returned back to, to the investors. The only way they get their money back is by selling their preferred shares or to yourself or to other people who can buy preferred shares, or if they own common shares, then it'd be traded or, you know, like, like a normal Sherwood, I'm assuming over the counter somewhere.
Speaker 2 00:36:06 Is that, is that right? Yeah. So I'll answer that in reverse, but yeah, basically the preferred shares will eventually be listed as well. Once we've, once we've raised 15 million of others, we'll we'll list the preferred shares as well. So you can sell them on a, on an exchange, just the same. Um, there are only differences, the common shares, it will be sort of like supply and demand. So the share price might go up as the, well, the share price should go up as the company grows, whereas preferred shares, you buy them for $25 a share, and they should pretty much trade at $25 a share, um, forever. Um, uh, but yeah, and then when it comes to selling a website, it's just like a business transaction. So it's not, we're not passing the profits on to the shareholders. Just like if, um, any public company sold some of its division that it wouldn't go into the shareholders.
Speaker 2 00:37:01 Um, if people want that kind of arrangement, then they should invest in like a farming door or something like that. Um, but the problem with funds, in my opinion is they have a finite life and after five years or 10 years, they do sell their websites and then investors get their money back. But then like, what happens if it was an amazing website, you guys were forced to sell it. So, and then typically if you're in a fund, you can't get your money back until the fund ends. So I was like, yeah, I don't, I don't want that kind of business model. I just want to build a significantly. I just, I want to build an empire and I want my shareholders to come along for the ride. So it's just a different vehicle.
Speaker 0 00:37:47 What, what is the market like for preferred shares at the moment then? So say I've invested and I want to take my money out. Is, is that a liquid ish market? Obviously it's not, it's not gonna be super liquid, but could I, could I do that right now? Or are you planning that, that will come later when it's listed?
Speaker 2 00:38:04 Yeah. So before they're listed, because we're doing a private sale. So right now we're raising money from preferred shares. And so, because it's a private raise, the law in the U S is you need to hold your shares for at least a year, unless we registered the shares. So registering them means we list them on an exchange. Once they're listed on an exchange, you can sell them any time, even if you bought them the day before. So it's basically you hold them for a year or until like we list. And we're planning to list them in less than a year. Like, it really depends when we raise 15 million, but the idea is like, it should be less than a year. Let's say we get delayed and we haven't yet sold them. We haven't yet listed them and someone's held them for a year and they want to get their money back.
Speaker 2 00:38:53 Then they need to find Blake's a buyer in the, in the aftermarket. So it's not really ideal. And they need to basically find their own buyer. Um, but once they're publicly traded, preferred shares is a trillion dollar, um, capital market. So, you know, most preferred shares offer like 7%. So if you're trying to sell shares that offer 12%, it shouldn't take you too long to sell them. You know? Um, most buyers are in institutional buyers, but there would definitely be like, if you've got, even if you've got a hundred grand worth of shares, it's, there'll be someone out there who's like, these things are 12%. Yeah. Yes, please. You know, they're publicly traded they're from a public company. They've got audited financials. Yeah. I'll take them. And if they don't, I'll buy them, you know, there's, there's, there's going to be people that want to buy them. So up until they're publicly traded, the liquidity is a little bit of a problem. Um, so it's not really the type of investment someone should make. If they're, you know, they're looking for a quick in and out. Um, and it's really better for a long term income investor.
Speaker 0 00:40:02 Okay. No, that makes total sense. I guess, one thing from a, just an outsider looking in, as in, from a risk perspective, as a, as, as an investor, and I know that you are diversifying the portfolio and you're buying different types of businesses and they have a higher return than the 12% being offered. But like, theoretically, what happens if, if something does happen, say Google changes its model, or, you know, something happens drastically. That means that your profit margin or your margins are now down to less than 12 or just above 12. And essentially you are running the business for free just to pay the investors there they're 12%, like how, what would happen in that case? How would you stay motivated in that situation? Because like everyone starts up with the right intentions. Uh, I think income store was, was similar to that. We've obviously got a totally different setup, but everyone starts with the right intentions, but things do happen or especially over the course of a, of a business lifetime of, you've obviously thought about that. What, what are you, what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 00:41:09 I mean, there's a few things, first of all, there's like, you know, how realistic is that to happen? Um, because of how we're diversified. It's actually not very likely. Um, but you know, of course, if that did happen, then what, where would my motivation be? And to be honest, it's probably not going to be a long-term source of capital for us to raise from a 12% dividend. So that's why we're saying to the first buyers we're Garren w we're not guaranteeing, but we were not going to buy back the shares for five years, because once we get to like a million dollars in profit, uh, an annual profit, we can go to any bank and get capital for 5%. Um, or we can just, once we're publicly traded, maybe it makes more sense for us, maybe. So right now we sold our P our common shares for $1 a share, but maybe in a year, the market's really frothy right now.
Speaker 2 00:42:10 Maybe our shares go up to $10 a share. So we say, let's just issue another million shares. So everybody gets diluted a tiny amount, but we raised 10 million. And then those that 10 million doesn't come with any dividend. So our longterm cost of capital is going to be significantly cheaper than 12%. And that's why we're saying to investors, what we're not going to do is sell you a preferred share for 12%. And then six months later say, Oh, we've got loads of money. Now we're going to buy the shares back because that's unfair on investors. So we're saying if you buy preferred shares, we won't buy them back off you for, for five years. But that being said, we'll still raise cheaper debt elsewhere or cheaper capital elsewhere, and then buy websites with that. So, you know, two or three years from now, maybe only, I don't know, 25% of our profit is going to be funded by, uh, dividends.
Speaker 2 00:43:09 And so it's like that again makes the, the chances of, um, the scenario that you're talking about, just, you know, very unlikely. Um, and so it's, it's, the answer is basically like that's not really going to happen. Um, if there's a small chance that it could happen. Sure. But because it's only a, another thing to consider is that when banks who are financing us and looking at our size, they're not really going to take the dividend payments into account either. So if we're growing our profit, but then most of our profits going to dividend payments that will just look at us and be like, Oh yeah, you're growing, we're happy to fund you to fund even more growth. So we're always going to have access to other sources of capital once we've, once we've raised another few million dollars. So, um, you know, long story short, it would only be a bit of our, a bit of our profit that was like servicing the, the, the 12% evidence and then suddenly our profit would grow. And we'd all be happy again. Anyway, so,
Speaker 0 00:44:16 And again, I guess the longer this goes on, so the longer the time horizon, the less that the risk declines as well, because that 12% dwindles down as you get access to cheaper capital. So that makes total sense.
Speaker 2 00:44:29 Yeah. I mean the 12%, we're never going to lower. If someone buys a 12% dividend, now it's always going to be paying them 12%, but the next dividends we issue, maybe the next shares we issue may only be a 7% preferred share. Um, so it just means our longterm cost of capital is going to be a lot lower than the 12%. Um, so again, yeah, as we grow that, like you say, the risk is lower for the, the initial investors.
Speaker 0 00:44:57 Okay. That makes total sense. Um, let's not talk about it. I mentioned a little bit earlier is, is some of the businesses that are in your acquisition pipeline, um, because they can see their actual businesses. So you've got a couple of listed on the site. One of them is a successful you Denny course. Um, one of them is an offshore entity and banking creation service. And then the other is an online training for learning how to write, which none of these are what we typically see in our small corner of the world as being a affiliate sites where it's monetized through display ads or Amazon, or a different type of a, you know, a program like that. Um, I've got a couple of questions on that. The first one being as these are businesses in their own, right? Like thinking about the offshore entity and bank increase in one specifically, like that sounds like you'd need specialist knowledge or understanding of a sector to come into that business, buy it, run it successfully, and then grow it, like sure. It's, it's probably comes with the team to do most of the day-to-day running, but you've got to have some, some level of knowledge in order to vision what the growth would be in that business. How are you, how are you managing that? Because, uh, your daily course is totally different to running an offshore banking creation service. It's totally different to run in something else. So how are you, how are you, how are you grouping those together and trying to grow them? Yeah. I guess, how are you doing that?
Speaker 2 00:46:28 Yeah, that's a good observation. And maybe as we grow, we'll become less agnostic and we will just kind of like cluster up businesses better. Um, so we're, we're kind of in like a four or five-year plan where the first year is just trying to gather audiences and grow the different platforms. And then from there, maybe we'll say, okay, now we've got this, um, offshore entity business, any other business we buy needs to be related to that or related to one of the other ones. Um, but going back to your initial question, that particular business, actually, the general manager would be coming with the business. Um, so it's, it's more than just like a sort of team of VA's running the business. So he has that, um, uh, that subject matter expertise, I, I probably would struggle to justify buying that kind of business without that kind of person on board.
Speaker 2 00:47:25 Um, but if I were going to do that, so for example, the Udemy one, um, I have actually team members who have experience in that industry, but if we, if we didn't, then I would go out and look for them. And that that's kind of another added advantage of what we're doing is because we're going to be a publicly traded company. It's a little bit easier to attract talent to work for us. So, and again, I couldn't really see that happening with a fund, but if I put something out there and say, Hey, does anyone have expertise with teaching a writing course? And you know, you come work for us, we can pay you a decent salary and give you stock options. And like, you know, we've got this grand vision, blah, blah, blah. Then people will be like, well, hopefully anyway, people will be like, yeah, I'll come work for you.
Speaker 2 00:48:13 You know, maybe people are listening to this podcast now. And they're like, yeah, that sounds like a fun company to work for. So, um, the idea is, um, yeah, we, we would basically try to onboard some talent to run those businesses for us kind of as like mini CEOs. Um, and the, that kind of segues into the reason we're going for these like sort of quote unquote businesses rather than just like random affiliate sites is because first of all, they're bigger and when they're bigger, you can justify it. Like, if you have a business that's making 50 K a month, you can pay someone 10 K a month to run it. Um, and then the second thing is there's actually a need, like the stuff, the stuff to do. So you can put a real person in place running it. Cause it's a business. It's not just a random affiliate site where you just hope it doesn't get dinged by Google. Um, so, so it's all kind of related to the same, the same thing.
Speaker 0 00:49:15 It's just, um, something you said there just reminds me a little bit, it's this very similar business model to, to walk it internet by any chance, like where you buy in these strategic businesses, is that, is that what the end goal is to, is to be something like rocket internet or, um,
Speaker 2 00:49:34 I mean, you mean the I'm just Googling them to remind myself who they are. So I'm not going to pretend, um,
Speaker 0 00:49:41 German, German develop operational strategy strategically investing in technology companies globally. So I've knocked that, all that I remember reading about them a while back, and somebody just said there, medically thinking this, the business model of sounds quite similar to those guys. Um, but I'm, I'm sure they raised a ton of capital in the, in the markets to basically go out and buy internet businesses and run them under their portfolio or the umbrella of, of rocket internet
Speaker 2 00:50:14 A little bit. Um, but I would say the difference is, so I think rocket internet invests in companies as well, whereas we don't, we just buy businesses. So going into securities law are a bit too much here, but if we make investments into companies, then we have to comply with the 1940 investment company act. Um, because we're taking people's money and investing it. Whereas if we're just a company that happens to buy a business every now and then, then that's just a business transaction. Um, I would say we're more like constellation software, which is a public company that buys SAS businesses, or we're going to be more like, um, so if you're familiar with tiny capital, um, they're actually just called tiny, but website's tiny capital. They're a holding company that buys a lot of online businesses, but then they also have a particular holding company that just buys like Shopify businesses. Um, actually it's a Shopify ecosystem businesses, so it's not necessarily Shopify stores. It's like all that maps and service providers that, um, that service the Shopify ecosystem. And they took that company public in Canada on the Toronto, was there the TSX, like the Toronto venture market. Uh, so probably they're the most similar, except they're just like in the Shopify ecosystem, whereas we're, we're a bit more slutty. Um, so, you know, we we're very far anything.
Speaker 0 00:51:40 Nice. Okay, awesome. Um, where, where where's the best place to find these businesses because they don't sound like the typical business that you would find in on like marketplaces or, you know, they probably very rarely come up with places like I can't buy flippers or is this now because you're so well known in this space, people are reaching out to you to sell these businesses or you still try and still have it actively go out and source them. And are you doing that manually? Are you, are you looking specifically for businesses and targeting them or you still just, just skin the deal for, from, from brokers and marketplaces?
Speaker 2 00:52:19 Yeah. All of the above. And you know, it's kind of funny because when I put together that that offering page and I said, here's some businesses we're looking at right now. A lot of people said, well, hold on, these businesses are a bit different. They're not content websites and so on. And it's just a snapshot of ideal flow at any given time. So we are still buying like affiliate businesses and stuff. And so those ones, we do buy off places like, uh, empire flippers, uh, F international, you know, all of the traditional brokerages. Um, but those, those particular ones that we put on the website, actually, I think one of them, one of them may have gone the, the, the online writing course, I think that one's gone, so I need to update it. But the YouTube course was a referral. And the, um, entity creation, one was direct outreach, like direct someone contacted me.
Speaker 2 00:53:16 So it is a little bit of like, yeah, I have a name. And when people, um, you know, some people are a bit more audacious. They're like, Oh, you're going to be public so you can afford to pay more. So I want to sell my business too. And I'm like, just, just cause I'm not able to pay more. Doesn't mean it doesn't mean I will. Um, although, you know, I'm a Chelsea fan, so it's kind of what we do then those people who, they don't want to pay 15% to a broker. So they, they reach out directly and they're happy to sell for market price. They just want to avoid the broker fee. Um, and then there is, there's this kind of brokers who operate in the shadows a bit more, and then they're not like sleazy or anything. They, they just don't have like a sort of marketplace or listing place.
Speaker 2 00:54:00 So they might just reach out to me and say, Hey, I have a client who wants to sell their business. Are you interested? And so we get some relationships with people like that as well. Um, we don't really, we're not really that active with outbound in terms of like spamming the internet, like, Hey, do you want to sell your business? Um, um, I tried that in the past thinking, Oh, I can get a bunch of bargains, but actually it's the other way around to the people who you outreach to. They think their business is worth a million dollars when it does like $300 a month. Um, so I just got tired, so we don't do any of that. Um, but maybe in the future we'll need to,
Speaker 0 00:54:41 Yeah. I've had that exact same experience recently where I've been doing a, quite a bit of outreach to try and buy under monetized websites. And, um, and yeah, you're right. Usually it's, they're under monetized because they're a passion project for people. And then when they come to sell the passion project, they want a crazy, crazy sound for it, which is nowhere near what it's worth. So yeah, I did the exact same thing where I thought I'm going to snap up a couple of bargains here, but it ended up being the exact opposite. Um,
Speaker 2 00:55:10 No, I'd rather just, yeah. I mean, you do find bogus we've, we've, we've either had handed to us or we've stumbled across bargains, but it's just like such a time sink that it's probably not worth it for most people. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:55:27 I did want to talk a little bit about your due diligence process on these sites, but, um, I know we kind of talked quite a bit because I think the, what we've talked about has been really interesting. So rather than just go in detail about your due diligence, I know you did, uh, you've written some, some awesome posts on that. So we'll link to that in the, in the show notes, but I did want to touch on how does by insights at these, these levels where you, you know, you're talking high six, seven figure websites, how does that compare to buy insights at the, you know, the sub a hundred K level? Like, is it a massive difference in terms of due diligence and all the working parts? Or is it, is it literally just the same, but on a, you know, the numbers are different.
Speaker 2 00:56:08 Some things are very similar. So, you know, your due diligence process is going to be the same. You know, you're going to look at traps and you're going to look at, um, uh, Google analytics is all the money being earned by one or two articles that, you know, that kind of thing. It's all, it's all the same process. Um, how big is the email list? Do they open their emails? Are you monetizing it one way or 10 ways? All of these different things? Um, the answers will usually be different because bigger businesses typically are more diverse. So even at like 50 K or a hundred K you'll find businesses that they just rely on five or six articles to make the majority of their money, but often at a bigger, at a higher level, there's, there's, there's just more due diligence to do because maybe there's teams.
Speaker 2 00:56:59 So you need to ask like, okay, is the team going to come? You know, like when, when I sold human proof designs, the team was included. So the due diligence that the buyer did was a lot more complicated. And when we bought a couple of businesses, the team was included, which is great. Buying businesses with teams is very scalable. But, um, it's also just, there's more to do because you need to think, are they overpaid? Are they underpaid and overworked? Are they going to leave? Can I trust them with my passwords? You know, just so many different, so many different things that you had to, you need to ask about, but then in some ways it's easier because sometimes you might look at a hundred thousand dollar website and the cell is pumping out an article a day and you're like, so how much does that cost?
Speaker 2 00:57:44 And they're like, Oh, it's free. Cause I do it myself. And you're like, okay, cool. How much do you pay yourself? Like, no, no, I do it for free. So then you buy it. And you're thinking this business is making, say three grand a month, but if I create 30 articles a month, I'm going to spend 15 grand or something crazy. So it's just like, it's not viable. Whereas a million dollar website, the, the, the cost of content creation is more often than not already included in the PNL. So yeah, sometimes you can even reduce expenses. Um, so it's actually from, from a sort of financial point of view, it's actually often better to buy a bigger business, which is another reason why we decided to pivot the way we did.
Speaker 0 00:58:34 Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Um, last few things I want to quickly get your, your take on, um, first one being, uh, the December of Google, uh, December and April Google updates, um, like again, sites have been decimated in a business like yours. That's all about managing risk. Uh, and I think you've already covered this. I kind of brought this without obviously anticipating your answers, but how do you account for this kind of risk in your investment firm? Well, it's obviously through diversification, but do you have any, any thoughts on like, if you don't, if you're unable to diversify by owning lots of sites and you may only own a couple, what's the best way to try and mitigate this risk from, from all these Google updates that are happening now?
Speaker 2 00:59:18 Yeah. I mean, there's, there's a lot of my investing philosophy has come about, not because of the December update fact, thankfully we were already moving away. So when the December update came, yeah, we had some sites, they got hit, it was painful, but it didn't crush our business because we, I don't want to say we'd seen it coming, but we kind of had seen it coming because a lot of the updates previously, it was like, I think the may update, Google was like affiliate sites going to take a lot of your rankings and give them to e-commerce businesses. Um, and so when the December update hit, you know, we'd already raised a bunch of money and started buying businesses and actually our, our bigger businesses didn't get hit. So yeah, it was all good. So going back to how, what I would do is if I just had one website, whether I bought it or whether I was like, know, I was writing the content myself, I know a lot of your audience.
Speaker 2 01:00:16 So probably similar to what my human proof designs audience was like. So they're kind of building their first success now. Um, I would really focus on something where you can have a community. Um, so for example, niche website builders, if you got hit by a Google update, like your, your website, I don't know whether you rank for a bunch of keywords or not, but my guess is it would suck because you'd lose some traffic, but your business would probably be fine because you've got an audience, you've got Facebook groups, you've got people listening to this podcast. You've got fans who, you know, they they're just going to come back every day. It doesn't matter what you write for. Um, and so now it's a lot of efforts to start a podcast and to have a Facebook group. So maybe not everybody can do it, but they can do things where, um, that kind of thing would happen.
Speaker 2 01:01:13 Um, so for example, okay, let's talk about drones. So a really popular, uh, niche website to build a couple of years ago, it was best drone and best drone, 2020 best drone, 2021, best drone under $500. All of that. If you just have that website, Google, that bait comes along like, you know, you could be okay or it could be game over, but if you ask yourself, well, who, who buys drones and, um, you know, then you have like, well, you have, um, maybe you have photographers. Maybe you have travel bloggers. Maybe you have drone races. Maybe you have like, uh, construction sites. And so maybe you pick one of those demographics, like a drone races, and you build a website around drone racing and you can still have best drone in 2021. But what you're building is a community of drone. I'm going to say drone theists.
Speaker 2 01:02:07 I hope that's a word. If it's not, I just put it out there. Um, and then they're going to come and visit your site every day, just because they want to see what you're talking about. And they want to hang out with other, uh, drone physiatrists, gonna make it stick. Um, and you know, a Google update is going to come along and you're like, you're not even gonna care. Like I haven't checked the Google analytics for on folio dot code probably since 2020. Um, and I haven't checked the rankings and that's partly because I'm not the articles I'm writing. The content I'm creating is not actually, I don't think there's a lot of keyword volume for them, so I'm not trying to bring it in, but it's partly because I'm like, I'm going to put content out there. I'm going to share it in Facebook groups.
Speaker 2 01:02:55 People will come. And when I create new content, I'll share it via email. Um, and there's this really nice feeling, to be honest with you, but it's, it's what I think is a good business. And so now if we're looking at a business and let's say it is a content site, we're going to ask ourselves, does it have any elements of, of what I just described? And if it doesn't like, can we, can we create it? Can we add it on, I could be buying a Facebook group or something like that. Um, and if the answer is yes, then we're a lot more interested. Whereas if the answer is no, then it's just the end of the conversation and we won't buy it. Whereas maybe two or three years ago, it was a very different conversation.
Speaker 0 01:03:39 Yeah. So, so basically just trying to build, build for, to run the business, diversify the traffic diversify, uh, um, yeah. First of all, the traffic, um, and build the community, whether that's through Facebook or through email, or does that tend to be ha does that tend to have to be tied to a person then who's running the business because most community it's easier to build a community around the,
Speaker 2 01:04:07 I mean, it's, it's probably easier if you have a little bit of charisma, I guess, like one long charisma, but I mean, obviously if you're a really boring person, it's probably quite difficult, but I don't think it's mandatory. So if you ask someone, if you're listening, like I think I'm a boring person, or I think I'm an entertaining person, but I don't want to build something around my brand. You don't have to. And if you do, you can just partner with someone or you can pay someone to be the face. Um, but I think you can build it around the team. Um, you know, there are still websites that I read that there are like football blogs or like American football blogs that I read. Um, so I'm, uh, I, I like American football and I liked the 49ers. And so quite often I'll read nine a nation.
Speaker 2 01:04:52 And it's very much an example of what I was describing, I think is owned by Vox who are, you know, they're fantastic of this business model anyway, but I go to nine, the nation, I type in the domain name. I want to see what they say after a game, but I couldn't tell you the name of any of the writers. Like I'll recognize their name. I'll be like, Oh yeah, it's this guy I've read his article before, but I'm not, I'm not following him. I'm following the website. So I think it can be done. And yeah, you have to, you have to be, you have to be better. You can't just put out a mediocre content written by non-native speakers, but the more effort you put in the better your business is going to be, so it's, it's worth it. Yeah.
Speaker 0 01:05:33 Okay, awesome. That's good. Um, and then the LA, the last one is, uh, the upcoming Google core web vitals. Um, like how do you think this is going to be as big as everyone's talking about? I know it's been pushed back by Google. Um, what are your thoughts on that? How are you preparing, uh, is it top of your priority list? Is it bottom of your priority list? Um, what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 01:05:58 I mean, it's on the list. Um, I don't know exactly where it is. The various people running, the, the, the websites we have at doing different tests to see how their, their sites score. Um, yeah. You know, don't quote me on it, but I don't think it's going to be as big as everyone's saying it because,
Speaker 0 01:06:21 Okay,
Speaker 2 01:06:21 Well maybe let me answer it a different way. I think people should pay attention and they should, they should try to get good core web vital scores, because if you do that, your website's going to get better, but I wouldn't worry about like, Oh, now I'm 82%. I'm not, you know, I'm going to lose my rankings. I want to get a hundred. Like, I wouldn't lose sleep over over it. If you were getting 0%, like yeah, improve it, improve your speed, improve your CLS score. Um, uh, but I think it's not like Google is going to turn on core web vitals and your rankings are going to shoot up to number one. And, you know, I can guarantee you that someone is going to be tweeting at John, John Muna saying, Hey, this site has alert a worst call where vital score than me, how come they ranked higher than me?
Speaker 2 01:07:13 And his answer is going to be sometimes a website. It might have other signals that tell us that despite the poor score users love this website. So we're willing to overlook that that's going to happen. And so really you need to look at everything core where Bibles is. One of them don't fret too much about it, but obviously like Google's rolling out for a reason. So don't just completely ignore it either. Um, and I think there's also going to be something where what normally happens is Google rolls out a thing and they say, Oh, right now it affects 5% of search and everyone goes, Oh, okay. Uh, so for example, but, um, the bad update was it like two years ago, when it first rolled out, Google said it was affecting like 7% of search or something and everybody just kind of went, Oh, is that or whatever, but now it's like 95% of search and everyone's kind of, no, one's paying attention to that. It's like, well, you probably should. So I think CLS is going to be something to pay more and more attention to over the next year. And maybe like a year after they finally rolled it out, it will be a bigger deal, but it's not going to be like a flip of the switch. But again, thanks for doing on that. Like do your own research, but that's, that's my that's, that's my approach to it. Anyway,
Speaker 0 01:08:30 I agree with you to be honest, I think of the exact team, same mindset. Awesome. Well, uh, Dan has been great having you on here. I really appreciate you sharing all of your insights. I think it's been really useful. I think our audience will we'll, we'll get some awesome insights from this. Um, where's the best place for people to reach out to you and contact you either to learn more or they're interested in investing with, uh, on folio how's best to contact you?
Speaker 2 01:08:56 Yeah, I mean, I guess the best two places if they go to on folio.co, which is our, uh, website, um, follow our blog, use the contact form that comes to me. Um, but also if you're into Twitter, I'm quite active on Twitter. So that's just, uh, act team on folio is my handle. Um, just reach out to me in either place, um, or just, you know, start, start following me there what's the best, best place.
Speaker 0 01:09:24 Awesome. Anything you think I've missed out that you want to add at the end here?
Speaker 2 01:09:30 No, I think, I think it's been pretty good to be honest with you asked really good questions. So, um, yeah, I, I appreciate how deep you went on some things and I think we've done a pretty comprehensive job here.
Speaker 0 01:09:44 Awesome. Great. Well again, thanks Tom. Appreciate your time and good luck with the future. And I'm sure we will. We'll talk again in, uh, in the coming couple of months.
Speaker 2 01:09:55 Yeah, I hope so. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 3 01:10:01 Thanks again for tuning in, and I hope you enjoyed the show. If you're listening to the podcast version of this episode, please subscribe on iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts, please rate and review. As this will allow us to grow our audience and create more shows like this one. If you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe to the channel and click on the bell to be the first to know about any new episodes that we release until the next episode. Goodbye.