Dixon Jones, ex CMO of Majestic on why we need to stop thinking in keywords and to start thinking in entities

June 22, 2021 01:07:29
Dixon Jones, ex CMO of Majestic on why we need to stop thinking in keywords and to start thinking in entities
Niche Website Builders Show
Dixon Jones, ex CMO of Majestic on why we need to stop thinking in keywords and to start thinking in entities
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Show Notes

 

Why should we stop thinking about keywords and start thinking about entities? In this episode of the Niche Website Builders Podcast, Mark Mars talks to Dixon Jones, ex-CMO of Majestic about how search is changing and how we need to adapt as SEOs.  

Dixon is a well-known speaker on SEO and was awarded a Lifetime Achievement Award in 2018 for his work in the industry. His newest project is called, inLinks, a content optimization tool that complements, rather than competes with other SEO technologies.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 0 00:00:09 Are you ready to get serious about building content sites and building a profitable business online. Welcome to the niche website builders podcast. We bring you the latest field tested tips, tricks and strategies for building a profitable online asset. We interview industry experts, share customer success stories and reveal our own experiences. Working on hundreds of sites to inspire and motivate you to make something happen. Let's do this Speaker 1 00:00:42 Johnny's again on the niche trips. I've heard the show today. I'm speaking with Dixon Jones, uh, Dixon Jones, uh, was there right at the beginning of majestic SCA. He, he joined forces with, uh, the developer of majestic SEO way back when it first started and, you know, between them, they, they turned it into the business that it is today. So he's got some really interesting insights into majestic. And if you've been in SEO for all, uh, long enough, then, you know, majestic was the go-to tool. There's, there's, there's plenty of competition now, but it was the go-to tool at one point, um, especially for, for looking at your, your kind of backlink profile. So, um, yeah, it was really interesting to talk to Dixon and kind of hear that, that story. We also talked to him a little bit about his new project in which is he's done a very similar thing. Speaker 1 00:01:30 He's teamed up with another developer. Um, who's, who's got a tool which is for, for content optimization called InLinks and, um, yeah, once again, he's, you know, he's trying to build this business, um, you know, with this developer, you know, from the beginning and, and, you know, it's a great tool. Uh, we use it, uh, at niche website builders and, um, yeah, it was great to just to talk to them about that. And, you know, really the basis of that discussion is about why, you know, why we should start thinking about entities and stop thinking so much about keywords and, um, this really important kind of concept to try and grasp, uh, in kind of modern day SEO. So it's a really interesting conversation. So I hope that you enjoy that. Also want to take a moment to mention, um, uh, you know, use the spot to kind of mention some of the age domains that we have in our websites. Speaker 1 00:02:21 So I got to mention, uh, one that we've got for sale at the moment on the site. Um, we sell our age domains as a, as a package. So there's a site build a hundred thousand words of content, uh, and, and the expired, the main, which we've, uh, vetted ourselves. Um, we have a due diligence process for what it means to make sure, um, that they're good before we kind of sell them on our site. So, uh, the one that I'm going to talk about today is called comic bento, bento.com. It used to be a comic subscription site. So you buy, essentially got used to get a box of comics each month on a subscription basis. So, um, really good, good site, you know, really credible, um, uh, such as, you know, really good backlink profile. So it's got some really good relevant back links, uh, from, uh, places like comic book.com, which is the DRA T comic beat.com, which is a 72 cat comic, which is a 64. Speaker 1 00:03:13 So it's got some, some really good things. And then, you know, the way that we think about this site, you know, one of the best things we think about is that could be used for is an informational site on, on, uh, comic content. You know, there's just so many comic series out there. There's so many, uh, different types of topics that you could just, uh, uh, create content on. So, um, now for example, you know, the greatest villains of all time, a guy to the, the, the Spider-Man series of comics, uh, that kind of thing, but, you know, one approach as well that you could also take is looking at vintage comic price guides and, and, and how you go about grading, uh, comics, uh, based on the quality and condition that they're in. Um, we've got some, a couple of examples, uh, on the, on the, on the site of other comic sites, which do just this, but they also buy and sell they're a marketplace for, uh, comics. Speaker 1 00:04:05 Um, so that's, that's, that's something, um, that, you know, I think he could, he could make a very decent site out of it just by going pure informational content, um, with, uh, ad revenue. But, you know, if there's always that opportunity to kind of expand the business out, uh, further down the road into kind of a vintage comic kind of marketplace. So if you're interested in that and you want to check out, um, uh, this domain and others that we have available on our site, just go to niche website.builders/domains, and also one last thing to mention, and the tool that I mentioned that Dixon has a, that he's working on at the moment called InLinks, that we use at each website builders. Um, he's got a special offer on, um, that, uh, means you can get a month free so that the tool is, is there's a certain part of the tool that's free, but if you go into the paid version, um, then, uh, you can get a, a free month, uh, of the tool as well. So if you head over to a niche website.builders/links and put it in the form there, um, we can make sure that a free month gets applied to the site. Um, without further ado, uh, let's move on to the show. Hope you enjoy Speaker 0 00:05:17 This episode is brought to you by niche website builders, an agency dedicated to helping people, just like you build profitable content sites, niche website builders are the hands-off content site marketing agency. You always wished existed. It's run by content site marketers for content site marketers, and they help both investors and individuals alike build profitable online properties. They provide a fully outsourced approach to content creation link-building and done for you. Website builds the same approach they use on their own six-figure portfolios. For example, their content packages come with a proprietary keyword research process are written by in-house native English speakers formatted using templates proven to convert and uploaded to WordPress with affiliate links added so that all you need to do is hit the publish button, check them [email protected] slash show that's niche, website.builders/show, and fill out the form to get coupon codes for 10% more content, or a 10% discount on links with your first daughter sent right to your inbox. Speaker 1 00:06:23 Welcome to the niche website builders show. Today I speak with Dixon Jones. Dixon Jones was the marketing director at majestic, uh, many years ago, and has since retired, uh, from that role and now works, uh, uh, with, uh, uh, building a software tool for SEO, uh, called InLinks. So we're going to be going and talking about it's maybe history has got a good 20 years of experience in SCA. So we're going to be joining into some of his past experiences there, and then talking a little bit more about, you know, what he does within links and how the web is changing, and also, uh, talk to him about what he sees coming down the road in, in the future. So welcome Dixon, Speaker 2 00:07:02 Mark. How are you? It's lovely to see you. And, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to catch you up on the beard today, so I'm trying to put it on, uh, but, uh, it's, it's, it's going to take me ages to catch up with you. Speaker 1 00:07:12 Well, I know you're really busy. Yeah. I know. You're really busy guy, like thanks so much for coming on. Really appreciate it. And, um, I really look forward to speaking to you today. I've got lots of questions about majestic and in particular, that's something we've used for a long time. And, and, you know, we're already, uh, users here at niche website builders of the tailwind links. I think if I were to talk to you a little bit more about that, and kind of sharing that with our audience as well, Speaker 2 00:07:36 This, this is why I like coming on to interviews really with customers. That's great. When a customer comes on, then they'll speak as the interviewee. It's basically, uh, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's free advertising for me, you know, and you're paying me so, you know, thank you very much, mark. I thank you for your customer. I do love it. If you, if you ever need anything on the roadmap, um, please just, uh, just say in the chat and we'll, uh, and we'll try and sort it out for Speaker 1 00:07:59 You. Awesome. Awesome. Okay. Take, take us back to the beginning then. So, I mean, even maybe pre majestic days if that's relevant. Um, Speaker 2 00:08:07 Yeah. When I started SEO in 1999, well, I mean, from my own side, I used to run after university. I'd be president of students union for a year back in the eighties, I then started running a murder mystery game business. I used to write and run murder mystery games, and the internet came along and I wanted to build a website in 1997 or 98 for, um, uh, it was probably 97 because it was using front page 97, don't use from boys and girls. Uh, and, uh, so I also built this website and, uh, uh, and the only thing I I knew was I wanted to be able to knock on the door. The people that had my website in case something went wrong. So instead of going for a data center somewhere, or get your own server, which people were trying to do in those days, I kind of went for the one where I could see the building. Speaker 2 00:09:01 And, uh, and the only thing that had going for it was, um, a weblog files. Every Thursday were being processed with a web analyzer system. So every Thursday I could see that someone had come to my website from Ohio and stuff, and, and I kind of figured out why, and I figured out why they'd come with, uh, you know, from, from, uh, from Yahoo or from, uh, AltaVista or whatever search engine was out there. And I went to Yahoo and had a look at it, and there was a big advert at the top for Addy desk when somebody types in Bernie, Mister games. And I thought that is crazy. That is so un-targeted why don't you just try and optimize for the algorithms so that you're, you know, you're at the top and you don't pay the advert, you know, don't pay for an edit desk side. Speaker 2 00:09:45 And so that's how I learned search engine optimization and it kind of went on from there. So then I set up an agency until receptional, that's still going to this day. I don't own it anymore. I'm not involved, but, um, founded that then got involved in receptional. So, yeah, yeah. Uh, it was called resection because we, uh, originally I was going to use the internet or, uh, actually it was a BT thing. They had to try and do virtual, um, receptionists. So you could sit there and have a bunch of receptionists working from home, um, which calls sit down. Everybody does now, but back in 19 98, 99, I was, so I was thinking of making a virtual receptionist business, and then I decided I didn't want to be a receptionist. And, uh, so I, um, I started up search engine optimization instead, um, which was a much better idea, I think for me. Speaker 2 00:10:35 Um, and so I did that until about 2008, nine. I still kind of as overlap, but, uh, 2008, nine a guy called Alex <inaudible>, um, well, I kind of came out with this product, um, sort of this raw version of majestic that, um, I kind of tried as part of the agency. And, um, so I tried to get the back links to a website, my website, I don't know what costs me $10 and I press a button paid my $10, you know, and nothing came back, an error came back. So I just, you know, the angry, the angry, seeing red thing, going through to support to what I assumed was some large organization. And I got an email back from the developer, Alex, I say, oh yeah, that was a bug. I'm sorry, I fixed it. Try again now. And I'll give you an extra 10 pounds over the credits. Speaker 2 00:11:29 And I thought, you know, once I figured out he was the only person that I knew that was, um, uh, getting backlinks from anything apart from back then, the Yahoo site, Explorer, API, or Yahoo. So I'd explore it, which is the only thing on the planet. I thought, you know what? I know everything. Um, I know everyone in the world that needs this product and, uh, uh, and we kind of, I saw, I had about a year where I knew I was going work with majestic. Um, and during that time I was in Iceland actually with Rand Fishkin at a conference, and he'd just set up MAs, which of course is another fine backlink analysis. Um, and we were on a panel. He was, he was, he was the MC of the panel and I was on the panel and I had the, uh, the majestic tool and I was playing and it was a site, one of the psych clinic things, and people were coming up with things and, and halfway through, you said, what, what are you using for this, uh, for this analysis is they are using Majesco. Speaker 2 00:12:22 I said, yeah, but I couldn't tell him that I was going to be working from Jessica at the time. It was still confidential, which is really annoying because that's when him and Geraldine, his other half invited me to his wedding. And I thought, you know, I, I've got to say no because, um, I, it's just, it's, it's deceptive. I mean, I'm not allowed to tell you that I'm about to go and work with majestic. You've just set up, you know, you've just launched links, links for at all. So I better just say no thing emotion. The next, next time I did meeting was at a wedding. And fortunately he had agreed, not him. He so have ran that I get on fairly well as a result, you know, but, uh, they could have gone badly if I played that card, Rob, really? Um, so yeah. Speaker 2 00:13:06 Uh, so, uh, majestic has turned into a monster really has developed very nicely over the years. Um, you know, there's other tools on the market now, for sure, but I still think that the underlying logic that the majestic, um, does to, to, to generate its information is, is pretty unique. It's flow metrics are, you know, completely unique. And now that it can start looking at second tier and third tier and up to five tiers way links and things that they would say, right, the BBC links to this page, you've never heard of to this page. You've never heard of them next to yours. Now, all of a sudden you can see that the BBC is infecting if infecting or affecting, depending on the nature of your environment, even though you haven't got a direct link from the BBC, but you're getting links from places that are, that are, that are getting that halo effect. Speaker 2 00:13:56 So, um, you know, that's, that's still, you know, an incredible, incredibly powerful thing to come out with. And I don't think anybody else is able to do that. Certainly, certainly not at the speed. Um, and for us to that, Majestic's able to do that. So they're still innovating. They're still doing very well, but I left that about four years ago, three or four years ago now on full time, but I'm still singing the flag. I mean, waving the flag. I will always be a majestic, you know, diehard fan. Um, uh, but I, uh, I, I pulled back, um, it's kind of got, got big and, um, I'm a, I'm a small, I'm a small businessman at heart and a sort of front end kind of coalface kind of person at heart. Uh, and, um, and then this French guy, um, turned up, uh, who, uh, had built this thing called InLinks. Uh, and so I did exactly the same thing again. So I'm very good at being number two in an organization, basically jumping on the back of somebody else's, you know, real clever, um, ideas, uh, and then pretending to be the front man for them or being the front man, but, you know, so I hide behind, uh, or rather clever developers hide behind me, I think. Um, and, uh, uh, I take the glory and they take, they take the money that suits me. That's what I mean. It's okay. Speaker 1 00:15:14 I mean, I, yeah, I didn't, I didn't realize, um, majestic had that, uh, that tool now where, you know, you can get there, you can kind of see the, the degrees of separation from a, from a large website. So, Speaker 2 00:15:25 So it's, it's, it does it for the top, you know, I mean, the problem is, of course, if you've got, you know, on average, say a thousand links or a hundred links, even then a hundred all have a hundred, by the time you'd get to the second light, you've got 10,000 links on. It's very hard to visualize. So it kind of does the B the, the, the major ones. Um, if you want to go all the way to level five, it could be quite a busy looking chart, but you can, then they've built some funny things that you can just sit there and say, oh, that looks like a link network, and you can go do a little ring around it and just pick out the link network and stuff like that. It's, it's quite cool. Um, and, uh, I think it's the only thing out there that's able to see things two or three links away. So it's a powerful piece of kit. Yeah, Speaker 1 00:16:09 That's cool. I'll definitely check that out. So take us to take us back to the Nova. So obviously you, you, you, you, you, you join forces with the developer for majestic, and, and obviously there was some huge growth during that time. So there must've been quite an exciting period. Like it tells a little bit about that journey. Speaker 2 00:16:25 Yeah, it was great, actually. Um, so, so what was happening, I mean, at the time there was this free tool Yahoo's site Explorer, so you could get your backlink data from Yahoo site Explorer. So, and we were charging the course. Um, and, uh, so we had this, um, this period where we were, had to be better than Yahoo, which is no small, you know, no mean feat really. Um, I knew the guy that had set up Yahoo site Explorer, um, and I knew that they were not investing in the tool very much. So, um, the writing was on the wall that, that probably wouldn't go on forever. Um, but even so to make money when there's a free product out there, um, you have to, you have to put a pretty good product on, um, and so doing that was great. We had this thing called AC rank, um, and that, which is, um, sort of Alex should not ski rank. Speaker 2 00:17:17 Um, and then we kind of developed this new thing called, called flow metrics or trust flow citation flow. It was at the time. And, um, and it really was a great proxy for, for, for page rank. And, um, uh, and then the maths on it is pretty sound it's, it's not using the page rank algorithm, but it's using, um, some fairly, uh, interesting maths to try and do something very, very similar. Um, and, uh, yeah, caught the imagination of the, uh, of the SEO community. I was already a at SMS or search engine strategies, I think it still was then. And then, um, uh, and popcorns and things I've been at Pubcon one, um, which was in a pub in London. Um, and, uh, uh, and so that gave me the opportunity to, uh, to talk about, about links. In fact, I'm wearing the, uh, the Patriot coverage today, so, uh, guess so, uh, and, uh, uh, yeah, caught the imagination. Speaker 2 00:18:15 Uh, we, we never really had an affiliate program for it either. So, you know, that, that grew without any affiliate program. I tried a couple, uh, that didn't quite work. Um, so really was word of mouth genuine, you know, genuine growth. Uh, and for awhile, we, uh, we were the biggest, you know, we, we were the biggest, the best and, uh, and standing out from everyone else. I think it's fair to say that others, so now competing pretty heavily in that space now. Um, but you know, so, so the innovation then comes in the, you know, in the second to second tier, you know, looking out for tier three to four or five, and they've also come out with a, uh, a product from a slightly different market, which is a social media influencer tracking tool, which, um, uh, sort of, uh, which is, which is also sort of majestic sort of social tool, which kind of uses our flow metrics over, over Twitter profiles. So we can find out how influential individuals are within an individual topic, also our topic metrics and stuff as well. So that innovation is, is, is still going on with it within majestic as well. Is Speaker 1 00:19:23 That, isn't that isn't that, um, Rand Fishkin his latest business as well, something along those lines. Speaker 2 00:19:29 Yeah. I didn't know he was going to do that either, I suppose, I suppose. Yeah. So see, it's a split spark Toro is for, I suppose, because it was getting developed completely independently as far as, or, um, and, uh, as majestic monitor it's called, um, and it's an entirely separate product, so, um, yeah, I think there's, I think there's definitely differences, but, uh, we'll, you know, I, I haven't felt that we've competed with spark trial on that one, but maybe, uh, maybe I haven't really been paying attention because yeah. Speaker 1 00:19:59 Yeah. He's like not majestic again. I can't believe it. Uh, yeah. Speaker 2 00:20:05 Yeah. I'm sorry. I tried to go off to InLinks, you know, as I tried to be, because my problem was I tried to move sideways. I tried to move away from a gesture. I didn't want to do something that was going to compete with majestic. You wouldn't widget rarely, you know? Um, so, uh, so, um, so endlinks was a good, um, juxtaposition because it doesn't do the things that majestic does really. So I'm, I'm still in that group books, you know, which is, you know, Speaker 1 00:20:31 So before we move on to, um, kind of talking about her, but about in Lincoln, what, why, why such a tool exists? Um, um, Hmm. Yeah, but Jessica, I would want to what happened? So it was just the two of you at the start, but how big was it by the time you? Speaker 2 00:20:45 Well, it was three of us actually was a three. We actually, for as, as, as me, me, Steven, Alex, um, Steve knew Alex before, before I did. Um, and then there's also another guy called Chris who's assistance avenue. I've been, um, uh, a business that size. You do need assistance admin. I told you if I open the windows, there might be some noise. Um, I hope it's not too bad that somebody, uh, go out there now. So, um, yeah, and that, that, um, we kept quite small fruit, a fair amount of time, but, uh, eventually we did have to sort of grow that up. Um, and it runs out of, uh, Ashton, Ashton universities CA uh, business campus, where he was no longer asking university Bates on that sort of land. Um, yeah. Uh, yeah, we got to go and see the queen of England for that. Speaker 2 00:21:35 Um, so it grew up, uh, a few, few milestones along the way. We won all sorts of best technology awards, um, between 2008, nine, and, uh, um, 2018, whenever I moved on, um, to search wards, whatever the case, uh, I won a few awards, but the one that I'm most proud of is, um, uh, it's the Queen's award for enterprise. We want to have those, uh, and that involves going to see the queen, a Buckingham palace, and, uh, along with know two or 300 people, but sitting around for a couple of hours and standing around for a couple of hours in, back in palace drinking her champagne, which is a really quite cool, I have to say, you know, good work if you can get it. Um, so we, we want down there and, um, yeah, we're very grateful for the, uh, the other thing that the other, yeah, it was good champagne and the other, the other cool thing that happened was, uh, we did a majestic in space. Speaker 2 00:22:31 So, uh, one of our ambassadors at the time was a guy called, uh, Mel Carson. I don't know if you've heard of him. I used to work for big, uh, and, uh, he came up with this, uh, this idea of, um, printing a visualization of the internet. We've got, we have this visualization of the internet. So basically you can take all the flow metrics of every website in the world, put it into a chart, we've got this 3d visualization. We can print on a 3d printer. So what we did was, um, we printed that on the international space station. So we, um, uh, so, so the sort of a 3d printer went up to the international space station, which we helped to sponsor. I say small, I'm sure it costs an awful lot more, but we were involved in, but we got involved in, you know, uh, helps us sort of promote the idea. Speaker 2 00:23:18 It went up there. And obviously it was mostly there for building, you know, widgets and things to fix the international space station. So you didn't have to upload, you know, send up every screw and bolt and things like that. You can make them on the, on the space station, but when it wasn't doing that, it has made something for, uh, for, for anybody that has sort of sponsored that thing. So they, they printed out, uh, um, visualization at the internet on the international space station. It then came down space X, um, landed somewhere in the Pacific somewhere. And, uh, they, they flew it back to, uh, he got unpacked, my Nasser and flown back to, uh, to ask the university. And then I did a TEDx talk on the, uh, on, um, on, you know, majestic in space at, uh, uh, I'd asked a business or a couple of days later. So that was pretty cool. Speaker 1 00:24:09 You mean as soon as in Birmingham D all right. I didn't realize it was pasted. Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 2 00:24:13 Yeah. Oh yeah. No, but Jessica's very British. Well, I say British. Yeah. I'm going to say it's a very British, no, it's not. It's quite, it's quite, um, cosmopolitan, but anyway, you know, it's a, it's pretty British. Yeah. I'm pretty sure British land. So, um, no, no, no. Americans were seen in the development of majestic. It's not entirely true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Speaker 1 00:24:42 Yeah. I know it wasn't the American development team, but yeah. They hadn't realized that they were, your office was based there. I don't know why, but yeah, I hadn't realized that. Um, so let's move on to endings then. So, you know, on the website, you describing links as a, as an entity based SEO platform. So I think it'd be quite good to kind of take it from the beginning and say, you know, you know, what are entities, you know, what is semantic SEO, and why, why do we care? Why do we need that? Speaker 2 00:25:09 Okay, it's really important. I mean, I think it's really important and that's why we kind of invest in this, this kind of, this, this and glider, oh, all the tools before, about 2015 must or 2017 must have been based on a keyword understanding. Cause we all looked at the, looked at SEO based on keywords. You know, what's the keyword volume for this? Or is it a long tail keyword or a headstone keywords? That's kind of how SEO is still think about, you know, the world. They kind of assume that somebody is typing in buy pizza in Birmingham. And, um, and, and then they care about whether it died typing in, by pizza in Birmingham or, um, or, um, get pizza or, you know, or whatever, all these different phrases around the same concept. Um, but ever since Google bought Mehta web, um, and freebase, which is basically a, a, a machine, um, encyclopedia for want of a better word. Speaker 2 00:26:07 So it's an encyclopedia of ideas and concepts, um, in a sort of easy to read machine readable format. Um, Google has been moving from thinking about things in terms of keywords and, and move towards things in thinking about things in terms of topics. So, um, when you have a sentence of text, you can read through that text and say, okay, uh, this is, is this about tower or is this about a bridge or is this about tab bridge? And you can run, uh, or we call it natural language processing algorithm over there and break the content down, its constituent parts, its ingredients, really, you know, basically the ingredients for this web page are tab bridge, um, cycling and London and, uh, and fissile hotel or whatever. Um, so you've got all these different things that are on the page that it's talking about it. And these are the ingredients of the page, the order in which you put them in, I guess, is what makes up the, the context. Speaker 2 00:27:05 Um, so by doing that, Google completely changed the way in which they're organizing the world's information because before they're trying to organize the world's information by here's all the web pages on the internet, and this is what all the web pages are individually saying, well, there's trillions of web pages on the web, we're on the internet at least. And, uh, and they're growing, you know, almost logarithmically. However, all of those pages are talking about the same sorts of things in different orders. So it turns out whilst there's trillions, um, or hundreds of trillions of web pages, um, there's only hundreds of billions of ideas of concepts that make up those that's sort of the language of, of, uh, of humans. You know, it's only in the hundreds of billions of ideas. So, um, if they start thinking about things in terms of, uh, entities and store everything in terms of entities, then you can take a web page. Speaker 2 00:28:03 And so, well, this is just reflecting an, a section, a number of different entities. So you can then sit there and say, uh, okay, we're going to store the world's information by entities. Now we know everything about a bow tie. We know where to go, to find out how, how to tie it, how to make it, how to, you know, what color, what fashion is is right. You know, so now we've got the concept of bow tie and then we can then spread out from there because if we can understand that the user is interested in the bow tie, and then they want to know to make it or to wear it or to tie it or to look good in it, you know, they, they can then use that to, uh, to give context to the concept of boats and then they can, they can, um, uh, take that information that way. Speaker 2 00:28:45 So you've changed the world, they've scaled the world much better. It also happens to be much more translatable because the concept of bow tie, when you turn it into, um, I item number kg 4 7 1 4 5 6, it doesn't matter whether the bow tie is where the reader is thinking in English or in Russian or in French or in Japanese, it's still about Thai. So, uh, so you've got a machine language in, in terms of the, the definition of all these things, but then you can sit there and say, right, okay, this, this page is talking about bow ties and fashion and, uh, and, um, statements and, and London. Um, so now I can deliver this information back to the user, or I can use this page over here to feed this understanding of what we understand about, about Thai. And the translation bit becomes very mine. Actually, they can translate content very easily, so they don't have to, they can take some information in Japanese and it can be used to feed the knowledge draft. Speaker 2 00:29:48 And then it can be used to inform a person that's answering or asking questions in English. So of course, these kinds of ideas, all go around, Google's head you Google Googlers heads, and this is how they're developing the world. So to think in terms of keywords is a bit, hence really now, uh, because, uh, the difference between buy a pizza in Birmingham and buy pieces in Birmingham and Birmingham pizza delivery are really frankly, all the same thing. Um, and if Google's gonna kind of work that all out in the, in the, in the entity level, then, um, writing for keywords is, is a little bit pans. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:30:26 That makes sense. That makes sense. So I think this could be a stupid question because I haven't thought it through, but I'm going ask it anyway. So if we're in terms of, um, Google, as it as a user of Google and search, when you Google, I'm searching with using strings, right. I'm not searching using entities. So it's kind of some mapping that goes on and should Speaker 2 00:30:45 There is. Yeah, it's a good question. Actually. It's a good question. So, so the first part of Google's challenge is when you type in, um, piece of delivery in Birmingham, Google has a few things that it can do, so it can firstly, run its natural language processing algorithm over that. So talking about Birmingham, talking about pizza and talk about delivery, frankly, it's seen three entities, it knows exactly what you want. Yeah. It also then knows where you are if you have to be in, in, in San Diego at the time. Um, then that's a whole different thing, you know, maybe we're talking about Birmingham, Alabama at the start. Um, and, uh, so, um, uh, so, so it's got to work out things there. It also knows what, um, what your history is as users. So, um, if you type in, if I typed in something like, um, you know, which engine is best for, um, for, uh, for non personalized search, um, then, uh, which, or which engine is best, um, then because it knows that I keep on talking about internet marketing and things like that. Speaker 2 00:31:52 It understands that engine is in the context of search engine. Whereas if, uh, if my old next door neighbor was doing that with all certainly be, or if my next door neighbor was doing it there, uh, who's a car car dealer and got Bentley in his Garret. Uh, he, you know, almost certainly they'd see engine and say, well, now this person is talking about the engine from the point of view of a car. So, um, so Google can use these kinds of signals at the query stage. So they're breaking that query into concepts anyway. So they've done that job. So, so now they're not necessarily returning to the, the, the results for the exact query that you've got and you see that all the time, you type it in a typo, it fixes it, uh, you put in, um, some things and you see that words are substituted. Speaker 2 00:32:39 So it sees synonyms, um, and, and results can come back that you use complete synonyms for, uh, for, for, for the words that you're using. So, uh, Google starts that process of, of breaking things into entities when the user types in their query, which you don't have any control over. However, what you can do is say, right, these are the riches. You can, you can use the same query to start your process or any query, but you might as well use a bit more of a headline, one bit of a harder one, the longer tail one comes naturally, if you, as a result of this process, you're going to get the long tail stuff anyway. But the, the headline stuff you put in your headline query, pizza delivery, or Birmingham pizza delivery, whatever, and then you can, you can re-engineer yeah. Um, what Google is doing. Speaker 2 00:33:22 So if you, you see the 10, the top results of Google is coming back back, bring you back. Um, but you've done have to run the same analysis as Google. What you need to do is analyze the results, have to come back, and then we use that to re-engineer what topics are important for that particular concept. So you use something more generic. So I don't know, it's something like pizzas and pieces in Burmese. Fine. So, so, um, when you're talking about, um, pizzas in Birmingham, then, uh, things might be important. Like, um, I don't know, Uber and Deliveroo and, um, uh, and, um, uh, mozzarella and recipe and, um, you know, Domino's, and, and all these things may be important because these are the things that are, um, semantically close to the concepts of pizza and Birmingham and delivery. Um, so, uh, we can, we can extract that from the, the topics, um, that the other pages are talking about and build a knowledge graph, um, of the topics that are important for the phrase pizza delivery, Birmingham. Speaker 2 00:34:32 And it will probably be a very similar topic, the knowledge draft to, um, Birmingham pizza delivery, or to, you know, how long does it take my pizza to get from, you know, Aston to, um, to the gum district or whatever it may be. So, um, so, so, so they will vary a little bit, but, um, but the underlying concepts, um, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll build there and they'll, they'll change, we'll build this knowledge graph. And then what we do is we compare against your content. So if you haven't written any content, we're just sit there and say, write, write about these topics. Um, if you have written content, we'll have read yours and built a knowledge graph of the topics that you're talking about. So we've got $2 drafts. Now, one of your content, one of the, uh, of the, the content of the best of breed, but you show the gaps there's gap analysis. Speaker 2 00:35:19 You really probably should be talking about, you know, Aston more, or you should be talking about Uber more. And that may be, there may be influenced by the fact that Uber is in the results, greets are in the results. Um, Uber eats are in the results. So they are by definition starting, um, that conversation. So you, you've got to make a decision if you're, if you're a competitor review rates, do you want to mention UberEATS as to, you know, the fact that you can deliver cheaper, faster, you know, hotter, whatever it may be, um, or do you want to ignore Uber eats and hope that they don't stay around in the search results forever? Um, and, and that's a business decision obviously, but certainly the more that our brand that gets associated with a concept, the more you're going to see them in the search results and the more they're going to be influencing the, uh, the search results. So at some point, if you type in Hoover, you're probably going to see Dyson. Speaker 1 00:36:16 Yeah, yeah. Makes sense. Which ironically are both brand names. Yes. Um, yeah. So, okay. So, uh, yeah, I mean, I think so just to kind of take a step back there. So we were talking about your content optimization tool, uh, as part of index there. Um, so, you know, if you're, you're looking at the entities that kind of, um, what entities you should be including potentially within your page essentially. Speaker 2 00:36:39 Yeah. And you guys use it and have some pretty good success with it. Speaker 1 00:36:43 So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's great. It's great for, you know, clustering content and, um, uh, and always kind of things. And so, uh, just, uh, just to mention just a, you mentioned that you, you created your own NLP algorithm, um, which is different to Google's cause obviously they keep that secret, but you know, how did, how do you go about creating that? Speaker 2 00:37:04 Well, they don't keep it totally a secret actually. Cause we, they have an LLP API and we run that as well. So we actually run our own, um, NLP algorithm and Google's, but Google's will only return an entity where it's confident, this is what the page is or pounds with, with an SEO. Uh, we're trying to is not just what it's about, it's the underlying ideas and topics. So our job is to be aggressive and show you all of the entities in a block of content, their job maybe is to just show you, just, just tell you what they think is mostly about. Um, so, uh, how we wrote it, um, I'm going to say it's probably a trade secret. Um, but, uh, that it is our own priority algorithm, but essentially we did have to build our own knowledge graph. Um, so we, we, which is based around, um, Wikipedia, um, because that's the largest multinational, multilingual, um, data source, um, there's publicly available, but we've done a lot of work for that. Speaker 2 00:38:01 So we have, um, we have Jeannie who sits around every day with doesn't sit around where she is sitting around every day. And, um, she's a linguist she's she's, um, she's just, just graduating from war at university, um, with a, uh, a really good degree in language, culture, and communications. And what she's doing is going through and every time there's a mismatch between what our algorithm thinks or pages about what our customers think is the pages about. I don't know if you've noticed there's a report in there, a button in the system, every time you press report an error, basically, that, that sort of prods Jeannie into going and having a look and seeing why is it that our algorithm didn't learn correctly? What that was in that context? And so the algorithm is getting updated and context is getting updated. So that's adding pseudonyms in there. Speaker 2 00:38:51 It's giving categorization in there. Cause what we've done, uh, over in the public media is categorize the whole of things as well. So we know, you know, search engine in the automotive category is different to what engine in the automotive grasper is different engine in the technology category, um, if software category. So, uh, so, so we're, we're expanding that. So every time the, the algorithm, you know, carries on moving, it's getting better and better and better. Um, and that's helped by users reporting errors. It's helped by us as humans. Uh, and then we, we tend to, we tend to work on that, um, based on our users, um, needs. So if somebody comes in with a very obscure topic website, we may not be very good at that yet. Or we may not have learned to very well, but we sort of feel a little bit like, you know, Google must've felt when they were trying to learn, you know, these things, you know, it's just iteratively getting better. So it's a pretty good knowledge graph. Um, it's certainly fine for most everyday things. Uh, when you start getting to the, uh, archaeological impact on, uh, on, you know, on, on fossils, in the, you know, the something or other Jurassic period, then maybe we're going a little bit off piece and, uh, or we might make some errors in there, but we could at mostly. Okay. Speaker 1 00:40:13 That sounds, that sounds cool. So from a, from a practicality point of view from practical use, you know, if I, if I'm a content publisher or an affiliate marketer, take us through the process of kind of using InLinks from the beginning 10th, what's the, yeah. Speaker 2 00:40:28 There's, there's different ways you can do it. Cause we haven't really talked about connecting the dots and how, how that, how it links where it's on the earth on the whole site yet we're still kind of, I guess talking about the, the page level, we'll have been talking about how you write a content page, but we do connect all the things together. But, um, but given that you're, you, you want to optimize a page of content or you want to write a page of content. You can't, you as a, as a content writer, you can just start in the same way. You've always started to sit there and say, please write, uh, I want to write a page around, put keyword in here, phrasing here. So you can put, put in the phrase, uh, and, and everything is done for you kind of, well, not everything is done for you. Speaker 2 00:41:07 We don't really, um, we kind of figure, I mean, you can, you can use some AI to, to, to write, but we do tell you the topics to write about. Um, and, uh, but we do provide you with a, an editor. Um, so you could then start typing in the editor. And then every time you mentioned a concept or an idea, it pings it up and says, great, that's fine. We've added that. So you can see the percentage of optimization go up as you start writing your content. So you can sit there on the left-hand side, you can see that you need to talk about an, uh, strategy marketing and operations and dynamics. I'm just looking at my books on the bank behind me. Uh, and so every time you mentioned those words, it, you know, that little tick goes up and says, right, okay. Speaker 2 00:41:53 We kind of to, he wants to talk about strategy in this particular article between six and 10 times, you've now written it six times, it'll go green. You know, it's fine. You don't need to talk about it. If you start talking about 30 times, it'll probably go yellow again and say, you're probably overthinking it. So as you write your content, um, then it starts magically coming up with these, uh, this sort of score increase. Um, or if you've already got content, it'll already have a score for you. And then you can just sit there and say, you know what, in order to get up into 85% or 90% or whatever you think is going to be acceptable for you, you need to just also just talk about this. And sometimes if you've got fairly good content and you're on page two, just adding a couple of, couple of ideas can make all the difference. Speaker 2 00:42:39 And you've bounced yourself up as a page in a page wide or the top half of page one a it could make all the difference. Um, so, so yeah, so, so you start just by setting the scene, right? Oh, what's the right content on this. If you wanted to, and you wanted to start right further back, you want to write a brand new website and then we have some ideas for how you might write that content out. Um, and there's a, there's a pretty good Turkish SEO called Corey. Um, who's been writing some stuff recently. Who's not connected with, uh, within links per se, but he's been saying some nice stuff about us, but he's been written some great stuff, has a brilliant article on on-call recently about topic mapping. Um, and, uh, I think we're really the only tool out there that's trying to do it, but I think, I think we could do better. Speaker 2 00:43:28 We're going to have to have a chat with Corey and see how we can improve and develop on his ideas. But if you ever really want to learn about topic mapping, you know, I think check him out a little bit. It's a good thing to do. Um, uh, but you can, you can, we have got some tools you can, you can use our, our, our topic maps as a basis for writing your content as well. If you wanted to say right, I got to write one page on this one page on this page, on this page, on this. And then instead of writing a page of content about, um, about one thing, you're writing a whole website about one thing with one page per entity. So what I mean more or less. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:44:06 Okay. That's really interesting. So how'd you what's uh, are you aware of, I assume you're aware of correlation, uh, SEO tools like surfer and page up to my pros, a pro market. What's your take on those and you know, how does that compare to kind of Speaker 2 00:44:21 So, well, I mean, so, so, so fresh SEO is, is, is quite close to us in, in, on the page side of things and that, and that they, they work here, we're based, but they're kind of trying to put some, they got some NLP stuff in there now, and they've done a very cool integration with conversion.ai. If you're, if you're a bit of a blackout and you want to press a button, then just create the content. And that's kind of interesting to see, um, it's fairly powerful, I've got to met. Um, but of course then you're going off a slight different angle from, uh, from, you know, actually having pride in your pride, pride in your godsend, if you've got to let machine do it. Um, so it's a case of where that balance comes in. I think where we're different, um, is I think we, I think we stack up pretty well to surfer and phrase and, and, and, uh, and those tools where we're, um, definitely have a massive added value there is when we connect the dots. Speaker 2 00:45:13 So because we have built our whole tool around entities, it's not just that we can help you write a page of content. It's also that we know all of the entities that your page of content has. So if you've got a hundred pages on your website or a thousand pages on your website, we know all of the times that you've talked about each of the different entities on it, and on each page, you can have a look at any one page I say, right, these are all the entities, and this is your dream, which they're important. Um, and we've got that for the whole website. So we now have a topic graph or a knowledge graph of your whole website. Now, what that allows us to do is two more things. Firstly, it allows us to create content schema, um, which, uh, we can go into if you want to. Speaker 2 00:45:59 Um, and the other thing it can do is it can internally lick things together. So, um, so what we do is we ask a human in the loop to just verify the topics. So you can sit down and say, right, this page is about these 50 things. We think it's about these, these two or three on the top. These are the really important ones, select one, okay, this is the book of this. This is a page about, um, uh, internet marketing strategy, fine every other time on the internet or on your website that you've talked about internet marketing strategy in the actual text, we can find the, the, the, the architects that we need and link it through to the internet marketing strategy page. So what we do is we, um, ask you to put one line of JavaScript code onto your website. If you're not a programmer or you, uh, probably a WordPress user, you can use a header and footer plugin and just put it in just like putting Google analytics code in there, or you can even put it in with Google tag manager. Speaker 2 00:46:54 So there's loads of ways to just put this one line of code in, and then that will spot what your, what your content is and insert the links on the page as it, as it loads, or it's just literally a microsecond after it loads. Cause it will use a defer tag, which basically means it doesn't slow your website down, but anyway, it's there. Um, and so now what you're, what you've done is you've said, okay, I'm talking about internet marketing, um, and internet marketing as an entity, but I'm talking about it all over the website. So where is the authority? Where does Google need to go to understand where the content is about internet marketing? Well, it's over here and every time it sees the concept of internet marketing elsewhere on the site, it reinforces that this is where the authority is for the concept of internet marketing, or this is where the concept is for pizzas, or this is where the concept is four ingredients. Speaker 2 00:47:47 So, um, so that internal linking now is not done by keyword. It's done by concept by entity. Um, and, and all of a sudden, um, you know, I, I sort of see it as a, as, as the website being a blur of different ideas suddenly becomes sparkly where all of the ideas is sitting out with little S ends of sparks. It's really clear to, to a machine where, where to go for this idea where to go for this item, where to go for this idea. Um, so it's kind of like a, like a star, like kind of, um, highlighting. So if you've got a rubbish website, fine, you've got a little star and Google's not gonna send anything back there. You still have got to have good content and some authority and maybe some external authority coming, signaling that this important website, but within your website, you can really make your topics stand out to us, to a machine using this methodology. Speaker 2 00:48:43 So we've basically done all these internal linking, and then we reinforce that with the schema side of things. So, so at the same time at which you say this is about pizza or, uh, or strategy or whatever, um, firstly that stress sheet relates usually back to a Wikipedia page. Um, it doesn't have to, but you know, we, we kind of, we know the Google understands Wikipedia pages very well, um, and used Wikipedia pages as part of his training set. Um, so we, we can then write some schema, which you also don't need to understand what it all is, but it just sits there and says, right, this Mr. Google, this page is about this thing. Um, and in case you don't know what this thing is, here's the Wikipedia page for it. It talks about this thing and here's a Wikipedia page and it's about these, these things. Speaker 2 00:49:30 It mentions, they're not about schema use the mentions tape. So you mentioned this, this, this, and this and this, but they're subservient to these main ideas at the top here. So what we've done is tried to give Google all the clues. So we've tried to turn it from implicitly, understanding the content to explicitly telling it what the main elements are on the page. So you've, you've hopefully written great content because you've now got the, uh, the ability to check with all the competitors you've, um, then define that and crystallize that with the schemer on the page. And you've reinforced it with the internal links and surfer and market muse and those things don't do those last two bits, uh, in, in that way. I don't think there's anything else that, that, that does that, um, internal linking by other tools are done maybe in slightly different ways. You can sit there and say, every time you mentioned strategy linked to here, that's not the same thing as not the same thing, because strategy could come and have different contexts, um, and may be an important idea on the page. And therefore shouldn't have a link. Okay. Speaker 1 00:50:32 Really interesting. Thanks for sharing that. Speaker 2 00:50:34 Have I blinded I'm bloated all your customers or your users with, uh, with so-and-so? Speaker 1 00:50:39 I think that's no, that's really good. That's really good and detailed. I think. Yeah. I mean, I think that's really, I mean, it really clarifies it and I think within our industry, I think people still catching up, you know, they're still, they're not working a lot of people still aren't working with entities and I think it's Speaker 2 00:50:55 Time. So as soon as the way that I, I think, um, you know, it took a long time for people to start thinking that links were important, you know, eventually they got there and of course, SEO, um, love bright, shiny new things, um, until the point at which they break them. So, uh, so I can imagine some SEOs coming into our tool and saying, okay, you know what, I'm just going to make this entity about thing about everything on the page. And it's going to be about all these things that just break it because, um, you know, we, we've tried discourage that we try and make it so you can only have one page about strategy or one page about pizzas. Um, uh, you can, can, you can get around it if you want to, but you know, only if you're probably not going to make your world any better by doing so, because I guess in a way it is, it is, uh, if for anybody that's been an SEO for, for, for 200 years, like I have, um, you know, there used to be a keywords tag tape, which kind of Google never used as a concept, but it definitely was, uh, was at some point completely obliterated by you by SEOs, um, and completely pointless. Speaker 2 00:52:00 Um, this isn't that, you know, people were just stuffing here, keywords in randomly, you know, uh, and this isn't that because if you carry on trying to make your page about everything, uh, sooner or later, it becomes about numbers. So you've got to get, you've got to kick, keep that it's kind of, that that'll sort of star shape things at sort of point makes, makes the, uh, the topic really stand out as crystal. I don't know if anyone understands, understands when I'm talking about the star shin thing. I've got to have to write a book. Speaker 1 00:52:32 No, no, that's that sounds cool. So, um, yeah, no, that totally makes sense. And, you know, we use, we're finding very similar things. We, you know, we, we run a service now, which is our, we call our FAQ content service so that we find that's a really great way to compliment existing articles and add in kind of some of these other entities and, and stuff. So, Speaker 2 00:52:54 Yeah. Yeah, of course didn't mention that we also have, have accused in their acute question, find her in there as well. So yeah. Uh, cause cause another tool that's out there is answer the public and things like that, that are, that are sort of turning to the words into question and what people are using. We, we look at, you know, people also asked kind of ideas and so we have a generator for, for, for generating questions as well. So we can, now you, any topic, you can go into the topic button details button and we'll we'll show you related topics. And then underneath that, if you scroll all the way down, it would just show you loads of questions that people have been asking about any individual topic. Um, and then also you can put in a keyword and then you can just, it'll just generate questions on the fly as well. Um, but this, uh, this, this idea of being able to create, create questions is a quick, quick route to, it's not quick route to writing it because you've got to write the answer to the question, but to find the other questions, you know, that's great. And then, you know, <inaudible> have survived the officers. Yeah, no, that's cool. Yep. Speaker 1 00:53:59 All right. Um, so looking looking to the future then looking forward, um, and you know, this, you know, we've had some huge changes over recent years really. It's, it's just the algorithms changing. Yeah, that's true. That's true. You know, we've just kind of start again in some ways, but you know, what, is there anything that you kind of see coming that, um, you know, what's your take on the SEO landscape, I guess in first and then, you know, what is it that you might see coming the rest of us don't see coming? I, I, Speaker 2 00:54:29 I think the, uh, the, um, passage indexing is the thing that I'm really interested in. Um, so, uh, going back to majestic majestic about two years ago, I think it was two years ago, maybe a little longer now, um, decided to start dicing webpage content into 40 different sections. Um, so every 5% of the page it'll, it'll, it'll show you where your links are within a 5% margin on the page. So, um, and it will break down a page every time it sees, uh, links on that page. It will show, you know, where they are on the page, whether they're an internal link or whether an external link and kind of divide things out. And then sort of, it's trying to work out context a little bit within that snippet within that 5%. Um, and this idea is, is really interesting because now Google is talking about passage indexing. Speaker 2 00:55:25 There's a lot of research around, um, that goes back way before, way before Google, even, um, uh, around trying to understand a Corpus of text, if you, uh, try and analyze texts in paragraphs for what's better in a passage, um, you'll probably get a better understanding of the underlying concepts. And if you try to read the whole web page and then try to, to do an algorithm of the whole webpage, and I think that's the same for a human being. If you think about a human being, you read a paragraph, it takes makes sense. If you, um, even if you jumbled those sentences up, you probably get a pretty good idea of what the paragraph is saying. If you jumble up the senses is a whole page of text, it becomes a lot less easy. A whole book becomes very, you know, very difficult to understand. Speaker 2 00:56:15 So, um, so there is quite a lot of, um, of, uh, of research out there saying that, you know, looking at things in blocks rather than the whole page as a whole is a better way of, of running algorithms over the content. So this idea of passage indexing whilst, you know, Google hasn't been particularly, um, well, I haven't read specific things about, about it. I think that it's, um, makes for an interesting development because you could have a 3000 word article on Google starts to become interested only in one paragraph of it. We are seeing that already, when you type in a phrase, now it's highlighting the section on the page that it's going to stuff, which is quite clever. Um, and, uh, so I think that, um, that will make a long-term change the way in which you write things. I think we'll start going back to, um, maybe writing things, um, with slightly less length, um, but maybe make, make them break them into smaller sections well-defined sections, uh, and, and understand the Google's understanding the sections independently of each other. Speaker 2 00:57:22 Um, and that's going to take a little bit of a different thought process, uh, and, and it plays well to endings. Who's already trying to understand concepts, you know, at the, you know, at a very micro level. So it's looking at a sentence of text and seeing the entities within that sentence and then connecting it up to the page that's about that text. So, um, I think passage indexing will become pretty, pretty important, but this move towards entities is going to go way beyond your content on your webpage. It's already there in Google discover if you're, if you've got an Android phone, I don't, but I'm told if you have an Android phone, you wake up in the morning, um, it notices that you're interested in hiking. Um, so it says this page might be of interest to you, and it's a page about hiking. Speaker 2 00:58:06 So it's taken that entity that you're interested in, found something that's, that's trending on the internet that I think is interesting and putting it in that. And, uh, certainly we were very surprised when on InLinks, when we started practicing our own medicine, we started finding our, our content appearing in Google discover occasionally, and that, and that's only appearing when somebody is interested in SEO. So that's a, that's a great thing, you know? Um, so, uh, so entities are getting more and more pervasive in the, in the, in the, uh, in the underlying, um, ecosystem. Um, and it's good to look at, but, um, but this idea of thinking in smaller bite chunks is, is also a thing that I think is very interesting to look at moving forward as well. The other scary thing, um, and it was scary, depends, or it's great. It depends on your opinion, it's this, uh, ability to automatically write content. Speaker 2 00:58:59 So, um, you can so say, so for SEO, I've already got an integration with, with conversion, die out.ai, and you can kind of, you know, rights, rights and content, um, by machine, you can also, um, use the topics that the InLinks have and, uh, put that into a content writing system. And it will come out with, uh, with some interesting content as well. And I tried it on my homepage of Dixon jones.com. So Dixon jones.com was written by a machine right now, just topped and tailed a little bit to, uh, to, um, to make it work. So I took the entities from the page audit, put it into, uh, into, um, um, the admin system, but then put it into a content writer and automated right thing. And it's not, it's not bad really. Um, so I, I I'm, I think that's going to cause some challenges for Google. Speaker 2 00:59:58 They clearly why that, and for humans, I think clearly humans would rather think that their content is being written by an educated human being. Even though it's probably better if it's being written by a, a, a machine educated computer, but, um, uh, that that's at some point going to be a leap and, uh, eventually the machines are going to be talking to them and we're going to be, uh, uh, we're going to be led by some very bizarre mathematics. Um, so I don't know where that's going to go, but it's, it's obviously I would say, it's not good. As I say, it's potentially not good for society, but you know, we've, we've been moving that way as a species forever, and now we're moving more and more like ants, and we're just finding ways to communicate ideas across and know it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what species you go to. Speaker 2 01:00:48 There's herb mentalities have always happened. It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen to be, to be right now. We've, we've moved to this new house. It's got lots of birds in the garden, you know, for the birds that are on the ground there and like clap my hands and they're all gonna fly away. There's no logical reason for them to do that. Or there might be a theoretical reason, but there's no rational reason when they know that I'm the one that's feeding them. So, uh, so, um, why do they all run away? So herd mentality just just happens and we're just moving in there into a, an interesting era. Um, but it's just, it's just, it's just a development of going from Ladera autism to, you know, the industrial age to the computer age, to the, uh, to the AI age. And all we're really trying to do is, um, create art, get our species working on the hive mentality. So, you know, and so the Chinese are already ahead of us on that one because they already have a, a political structure that gives them a hive mentality. So, you know, but catch up on that. Sorry, I'm getting into philosophy now. I love, I love talking philosophy, so Speaker 1 01:01:51 Awesome. Oh, that's yeah. Well, one last question then before we, uh, wrap it up. So do you think, um, over the last decade, do you think it's a, it's a higher bar to entry for new FTOs into internet marketing? Or do you think that the tools actually things are easier? Speaker 2 01:02:09 Oh, I used to say it was getting higher and higher and higher is one of the reasons why I ran away from being, uh, running an agency, um, because it was really hard. Clients are really hard clients don't, they don't understand it. And then when they do understand it, they expect miracles from you. And it's a, it's a hard, well to be in a sea of a trillion web pages. Um, so, uh, so I was thinking it's harder and harder and harder, but this move towards, um, concepts, um, is interesting. Uh, the fact that everything moves so quickly, I think is interesting because new ESCOs have the advantage of not having that baggage. A long tooth SEO like me has to really work, to change their mindset. I mean, I had to, I had to sit there and write 40, 50,000 word kind of a thing of the semantic SEO guide just to get my head away from thinking in terms of keywords, um, uh, mentally ended up as useful content. Speaker 2 01:03:09 Now we're working into an ebook hopefully, but, um, the new SEO is as long as they, they start learning from sensible sources, instead of hearsay, I think is, uh, are, are actually, they can get up to speed reasonably, uh, quickly if they want to, but preferably not try and do it all. Don't try and be the, uh, the webmaster that's trying to, you know, if you're doing core site core, you know, speed analysis and you could drink, are we playing with HT access and you're playing with entities and you're playing with a JavaScript and you're playing with code and you're playing with this and you're playing with that. And you're playing with a traveling at some point, you're going to break and you're going to be no good at any of it. So you have to accept that the, the, the role is now too big for one person, or it should be too big for one person. Speaker 2 01:04:03 There's a few people that can, that can, you know, do everything. Um, but you don't need to do everything. You need to be good at the bit that you're going to be doing and make it a reasonably large bit. So, you know, whether it's going to be, I'm going to write all the content for, uh, for, for, for affiliates and website owners or whether it's going to be, I'm going to host this, singing it with using, you know, WP engine, because it's fast and furious and quick, or I'm going to be the person that goes through every page and makes it yo, stop to eyes or whatever it's going to be. Um, you know, you, you need to know what you're doing, know why you're doing it. Um, but don't try and do it away and say, and when you don't know it just say, I don't know. I think the biggest mistake for SEO gurus is that they don't say, I don't know enough. They do say it depends way too much. I don't like the, it depends. Uh, I think it depends. These are really unhelpful. Um, I don't know. He's a much Speaker 1 01:04:58 More, yeah, no, I agree. That's a good tip. So let's say, yeah, thanks for that. Okay. Where can people find more about you where's the best place to go? Speaker 2 01:05:08 Well, I mean, if, uh, if, if, uh, people haven't heard of Majesta and haven't tried majestic, or maybe use a, a Moz or H refs or SEMrush use backlink analysis tool, do have a look at Majestics, it's, it's a, it's a lot better than you might think. That's something majestic.com that costs me a lot of money. Uh, and that's the main, uh, then, um, if you want to know about the, the InLinks tool, we have a free version of N-linked. So just go to inlinks.net and sign up for the free system. That means you can put up to 20 pages on your site, or you can do a couple of a couple of pages or that it's free a month and put 20 pages. You can link 20 pages together. So you get the underlying principles. If you, if you go on twin links and then, um, press the demo button, there's, there's, we're trying to sell you a demo. Speaker 2 01:05:53 Basically, if you do the demo, then, um, you get a free month basically. So what we haven't, I, technology is not clever enough to actually give you your first month free. So you actually have to sign up for a month and we give you your money back if you've done the demo, but we won't give you your money back and let you done the demo, because otherwise you'd just sign up thinking, thinking, think in terms of keywords, won't get it. And it only takes about 30 minutes and you're switched on. So a 30 minute one-to-one demo with carrying probably, um, Andrea, and you're good to go. Um, so please go to indexed on that. If you want to find me, uh, Twitter is, um, Dixon underscore Jones, um, or Dixon jones.com, um, but probably best to see me through three things. Speaker 1 01:06:35 Awesome. Well, thank you very much for your time. And, uh, Speaker 2 01:06:39 Mark, thank you very much for having me on. I, I I've enjoyed it. I like, uh, I liked seeing the breeze about entities and links and things like that. So it's, it's less to come on and be able to. Great, Speaker 1 01:06:50 Thanks. Enjoy the rest of your day. Speaker 2 01:06:52 Cheers. Bye-bye bye everybody. Speaker 1 01:06:56 Thanks again for tuning in, and I hope you enjoyed the show. If you're listening to the podcast version of this episode, please subscribe on iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts, please rate and review. As this will allow us to grow our audience and create more shows like this one. If you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe to the channel and click on the bell to be the first to know about any new episodes that we release until the next episode. Speaker 3 01:07:20 Goodbye <inaudible>.

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