Speaker 0 00:00:09 Are you ready to get serious about building content sites and building a profitable business online. Welcome to the niche website builders podcast. We bring you the latest field, tested tips, tricks and strategies for building a profitable online asset. We interview industry experts, share customer success stories and reveal our own experiences. Working on hundreds of sites to inspire and motivate you to make something happen. Let's do this
Speaker 1 00:00:41 And welcome to this week's episode of the niche website, builder podcast, and YouTube channel this weekend, talking to two great guests, Alex and Healey, the one of their sites. One of the public sites that we'll talk about is fin versus Finn. It's a, it's an affiliate site, but it's a different take on an affiliate site. They don't monetize with display ads. They don't monetize with Amazon or anything like that. Um, they go direct to brands. They also have, uh, have leveraged their relationships with, uh, affiliate programs. So affiliate managers, um, and rather than just, you know, sign up for somewhere, like share a sale or something like that, and actually try and develop a deeper relationship with these affiliate managers, um, which means that they can leverage better payer commissions and better deals all around. We also talk a little bit about, uh, some of the tactics they've used to grow fin versus Finn, uh, especially around the way that they create their content. And then finally, we finish up with an interesting opportunity that they have for other people who are interested in building sites, such as fin versus Finn. So let's get into it.
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Speaker 1 00:02:53 Hey Alex, and Haley. How are you both great to be here. Thanks for jumping on the show with us. Yeah, how's the, how's the weather over you guys are based over in Califor,
Speaker 2 00:03:04 California. Yep. Uh, it's clear and sunny. Little, a little cool, but not bad for a February. I'd say.
Speaker 1 00:03:13 I mean, yeah, just, I just imagine that it's always sunny in California. Maybe it's because I've watched so many films. I don't know.
Speaker 2 00:03:18 No sunny are on fire these days. Three modes.
Speaker 1 00:03:23 Yeah. Those fires. Yeah. Is that all, is that all done now? Is that all finished
Speaker 2 00:03:27 For now? I'm sure it'll start up again, probably in four or five months. So it'll it's it seems like a worrying trend, unfortunately for an affiliate marketer to try and save the day they're getting into in the middle of the fire season. Last year, we contemplated trying to find a firefighter or someone to start an affiliate site for us to try to come up with air filters and other other gear that people would need, because it was, um, it was pretty crazy.
Speaker 1 00:03:57 Yeah. There's such a thing as private firefighters out there. Right. I'm sure I read in the news that people were high, like celebrities were hiring private firefighters to, to guard their home essentially.
Speaker 2 00:04:09 So cost benefit analysis there, you know, if your home is worth enough, it might be worth it. But for us, not so much, we got to rely on the public, but it's top of the car and run. If there's a footwear company, I'm not going to try to fight it. No.
Speaker 1 00:04:28 Well, thanks for being on. Um, it'd be interesting to, before we kind of dive into like the, the marketing aspect of the interview, just to learn a little bit more about, about both of you like your backgrounds, how you got started in kind of affiliate marketing. Maybe even if you remember how you made your first dollar online,
Speaker 2 00:04:47 Going to go first fair. Why not? Um, so I started off my career in finance. I was actually a venture capitalist with a couple pretty big venture capital firms. And then when the financial crisis happened in the mid two thousands, I, uh, realized I probably needed to learn how to do something other than just moving money around. And it looked across all the companies we've invested in. And I found that there were a few roles that they were all hiring for. Um, one of them was a web engineer, which I can not do, but another one was, uh, a data-driven marketer. And I thought, well, I liked, I liked numbers. And I like to write, maybe that's a thing that I could do. And so I then joined a series of startups and help them raise money and also, uh, ran marketing and figured out how to do online marketing.
Speaker 2 00:05:35 And so I had some pretty big success there, particularly with one company in the solar space that went public. Um, and while I was there, uh, started spending a lot of money on affiliate marketing and realized that there's this whole world out there, that's not the sort of traditional online marketing that you would do inside of a corporation or a startup, but there's this whole other world of entrepreneurs, small business owners who have their own businesses driving qualified traffic, or leads to two other companies. And actually when I was at that solar company, we purchased one of the largest affiliate marketing companies in that space for tens of millions of dollars. And I got to know the founders of that company. And I was like, okay, well, these guys are probably smarter than I am, but on the other hand, I don't know that they're doing anything that's like, so, so hard, um, and happened to join a company where Alex was also on the marketing team.
Speaker 2 00:06:27 We got to know each other pretty well. And kind of, as we left that startup, I kept poking at Alex and saying, Hey, I want to, I want to start this. I've got this website. I want to start a website and do let's, let's, let's start at affiliate marketing website. And I think I let Alex tell him he was, I think he was a little skeptical at first, but then, uh, then, then when it started to work, um, I think, I think his eyes were opened and, and, uh, you know, we've been off to the races ever since then with Ben versus him.
Speaker 3 00:06:52 Yeah. And definitely skeptical at first. I, uh, I didn't have the experience of the $10 million purchase of, uh, of the affiliate site in my back pocket to kind of reference. So didn't, didn't sort of connect the dots and have been how affiliate marketing could be lucrative in the beginning, but super glad that he pushed me. And obviously we'll talk about, um, kind of where that, where that project, where fin versus spin is today, but just a bit on my background. Um, you know, I'm from Los Angeles, I moved to the Bay area for school, for college. And then because my opportunities in the Bay area were all sort of tech focused. That's where, where I took my first internships and first jobs, um, lived in California in San Francisco for about six or seven years, working in early stage tech companies, usually as marketing hire number one, um, which is also kind of where I'm at Healey as well at a very, very early stage FinTech company.
Speaker 3 00:07:43 And, and I think maybe the one thing he left out of that, it's just that the reason that's called thin versus Finn is because we were working at a FinTech company at the time when we thought, while we do SEO for FinTech, we know there's opportunity here. Uh, we just left a FinTech, let's start there. I mean, that seems like a natural, um, close to home spot. Uh, but, um, as, as well as we'll sort of tell here in the story, we quickly pivoted away from FinTech and moved into trend to consumer wellness. Um, and it's been a really awesome project to work on together.
Speaker 1 00:08:14 That's awesome. Interestingly, that was one that was literally my first question is where did the name <inaudible> come from? So that's where it comes from. Yep. Fits into this is Finn. Was your, both of your first kind of foray, like on a personal level into, into the affiliate marketing world, you didn't, you didn't have any prior experience apart from MCQ uni with your, your day job. This was like the first time you looked at an affiliate site.
Speaker 3 00:08:39 I will admit, um, I did have one failure before this, uh, Hugh and I used to joke a lot about Japanese whiskey and how it was becoming a huge kind of global commodity. And while the prices are skyrocketing and I was a fan of myself, so I thought, well, maybe there's, there's an opportunity for SEO around this. I think the obvious looking back, you know, looking back hindsight's 2020, uh, answer is, you know, it's really difficult to ship, uh, alcohol around the world. There's legal regulations. The margins are good, but there's potential breakage and all the rest. So yeah, it wasn't the best affiliate category, but I did spin up a site. I did write a content. I did try and make that work for a tiny bit. Um, and then when you don't get traction, it's easy to, easy to quit. So that was just my only experience before in vs. Spin.
Speaker 1 00:09:29 Cool. I mean, it's a pretty home run then if this was like your proper first go at it, then, cause the site's gone on to do amazing. Right. Was it, is it about two, two and a half years old now the site maybe a little bit longer.
Speaker 2 00:09:41 Yeah, just over two years old now I guess. Right. So, um, we started basically the beginning of 2019. So 2019, 2020, now we're at the beginning of 21, so that's right. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:09:50 Definitely. And do you guys mind sharing kind of top line revenue? What, like how much the site's making and how that, how that grew like, did it, was it like the hockey stick growth or like everyone talks about or,
Speaker 2 00:10:01 Well, so it did grow up pretty fast, but, um, you know, one thing we do want to touch on later in the interview is so we have sort of now a we'll call it kind of a franchise of sites where we have partnered with other, um, entrepreneurs to fire up their own affiliate sites. Um, and we'll, we'll talk about the X. We think we bring a particular expertise to the party, which is why people are interested in partnering with us, but, you know, across that network, the sites are doing, you know, 50, 60 to $70,000 a month.
Speaker 1 00:10:35 That's awesome.
Speaker 2 00:10:37 I don't know if, uh, hopefully outs is okay with me sharing this, but you know, we have, we have yet to start a site that hasn't done it or isn't doing over 10,000 a month of revenue, um, which I think is pretty awesome. Um, now we have bought some sites that we haven't been as successful with. It seems like we're, we're better at starting from scratch and then buying sites. Um, and you know, we'll probably talk about the, some of the Google updates seem to penalize the sites that we buy, whereas they don't seem to penalize the sites that we built. So I'm not sure there's, I'm sure there's some sort of a learning there. If I was able to sit pensively with a glass of Japanese whiskey, I can, I can untangle it building than buying.
Speaker 1 00:11:22 Yeah. Heavy, be super interesting to delve into that kind of what the difference is. I think, I think, I think I obviously you're one of our clients and these website builder clients. So I've seen some of your, the sites that you've bought. And I think it's mainly to do with like fingers. His fingers are a whole nother level of quality, right? It's not your typical affiliate type of website. It's full of tables and data and, you know, deep, deep delves into information. Whereas most affiliate sites kind of just scratch the surface, right? They very heavy, best X for Y type. And the whole aim is not to educate, but to get someone to click through, whereas Finless is Finn, it's there to, to get someone to click through. But the primary purpose generally seems to educate is there for education.
Speaker 2 00:12:09 I think that's accurate. And we take a lot of pride in that. So we have physicians and dentists and people with credentials that review a lot of those content that we create to make sure it's medically accurate and things like that. So we wanted to diversify the sleep. I think if I was to describe the approach, we have to how we research these. And one of the reasons why we like working with your writer teams, because they seem to have a similar approaches, you know, when, when we were inside of large companies and we want to make a big purchase of like a software or hardware or something, put a lot of research into it and you might even do, what's called a request for proposal where you asked your companies that you might work with to answer a suit, like a very long form series of questions that yeah.
Speaker 2 00:12:52 And you compile that data and you put together tables and then you present it to the CEO or your boss and you say, okay, we're going to spend a million dollars on this product are the top three vendors. Here's the pros and cons of the top three vendors. Here's the pricing, here's the key features laid out in the table. So that very quickly in a meeting, the CEO can look at it and point to a feature and ask you about it. And then you dive into the features and then you have a recommendation. So we take that sort of same approach of, okay, we're going to buy him. We're going to purchase something for a million dollars inside a professional organization where we have to convince the CEO to do this. And we apply that to, to the stuff that we write about. I was just going to add on there.
Speaker 2 00:13:30 Um, I think, you know, one thing that gives us the confidence to do this, cause it sounds kind of crazy, right? Like why create an RFP for, um, you know, just a random product that doesn't cost them a million dollars? Uh, well, I think it's because we tend to focus on very considered purchases. So they're consumer purchases, but it's not like a $5 thing for the most part. Um, they're usually around health and wellness, which is a kind of a considered area. Um, and then because these companies are growing really well and uh, they have kind of great unit economics for the most part or they, they just have a lot of cash that they're looking to, to burn on growth one, one or the other. Um, they, uh, you know, the payouts tend to be higher. Um, and therefore, you know, we have to sort of a little bit more, we've developed a little bit more competence around how much time and energy and, um, and all of that, that we should be putting into each article. So I definitely think it's a quality game over quantity is, is sort of our approach.
Speaker 1 00:14:24 Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think, I think when I looked in <inaudible> society, Scott like less than 150 posts on there, but it's doing insane numbers, so it's definitely quality over quantity, I think. Yeah. Um, okay. Well, I mean, keeping on the, the, the attractive fin versus fitting, how do you guys decide what to write about? Because again, it's, it's totally different to like the normal affiliate site where it's best X, Y or it's full of long tail kind of trying to just siphon traffic from, from Google. It's more versus product, um, Brandy versus brand B or brand reviews. How did you decide what to review?
Speaker 2 00:15:06 So I think being in Silicon Valley has some pretty serious advantages and the world that I play in, in that outfit on a more kind of on the marketing side is, um, we interact with a lot of VCs and marketers are starting companies. So we are actually pretty plugged into the, Hey, what companies are getting invested in, in Silicon Valley and who's starting new companies and what trends are taking off. Um, and so I think that's the place where we get our ideas is we just try to stay very close to where the money flowing and which type of companies are doing really well. That that gives us some pretty serious advantages. So in my day job, I advise startups and venture capital firms. Um, and so I was approached by the, uh, one of the founders of one of the leading telemedicine companies in the United States is founding a new, a new company.
Speaker 2 00:16:00 He approached me and I've been chatting. He actually asked me to be a CML, which is cool, but I'm kind of having fun with what I'm doing so that it's not what I want to do. But on the other hand, he, he shared a lot of statistics with me about the space that he wants to go after. And I don't think that there are very many people who have access to that type of information. Um, so I'm not sure that super reckless, like I don't, I don't know that the random person would go and replicate that. Um, but I do think that there are, it's a weird thing to be passionate about. Right. I really think I've just loved these types of businesses and they're really fun, but I'm sure there are analogies in other industries. If you are an expert at XYZ, you could probably go do this type of thing.
Speaker 2 00:16:42 And again, Alison, I did talk about starting a website, um, around how to be prepared for a fire. And when fire season is, California is really bad and in Australia as well. And so to the extent you were a firefighter or a first responder or someone, you, you probably have superior information to the average Joe. And there are probably a lot of people on the internet who want to search for that type of thing. Right? So there's no reason you, depending on whatever thing, you're an expert in, there's no reason why you couldn't go and recreate something in a similar space.
Speaker 3 00:17:14 Yeah. And I, I think, uh, so, so I kind of up on it before, but just make sure it's a considered purchase first. So I do think fire equipment is a fairly considered purchase, but if you think about like, um, a medicine or, um, you know, uh, uh, something that costs a lot of money, that's sort of big than other people in your life, maybe you're using as well, that's a considered purchase. So when do you start, start there, then you have that, um, then that's sort of fertile for affiliate kind of product reviews and comparisons. That's sort of the first step. And so what he said about access and it's keeping our finger on the pulse where investment dollars are going and kind of what the economics of different companies are, is, is all very true. Um, I just want to sort of, I want to say that you don't have to be kind of plugged into that world to necessarily see those trends.
Speaker 3 00:18:03 Um, there's a couple of prophecies for them. One would be, you know, a crunchbase.com or any sort of, uh, site that talks about where the investment dollars are going. If you get, if you're hearing about it the day that the money is invested and it's not too late, I mean, they're just still very much on the early side of things. So you could follow that. Um, I think also just, um, you know, so that's, that's just kind of all public information. The other thing is like, you know, Hey, uh, the, the real insight for me, at least from a user's perspective was I see ads all the time on Facebook, on the subway, on, in newspapers, on TV, about new brands. And I probably don't notice them the first few times, but then once a competitor comes into the realm, I'm like, wait, there's two of these companies, there's three of these companies, like, how do they all compare?
Speaker 3 00:18:49 Like what, what are the differences I might not even be in the market for them. I'm just interested in curious. So I think that's where kind of this X responded to the, um, comparison idea came from. And, and a lot of these companies are just spending boatloads of money on advertising as two marketers, ourselves Healy. And we know what, um, we know where companies put their marketing dollars. And so if they're already doing Facebook and Google, well, the next step is probably affiliate. Um, and so it's just kind of a nice model where I think it's all very public information. It's just, um, you know, being smart about where you invest your time based on those signals.
Speaker 1 00:19:26 So it's, it's mainly not, not based on the traditional keyword research kind of method then where you, cause it sounds like you're trying to get in early from these, on these trends. Whereas most SEO tools don't have historic data because the company wasn't around six months ago, is that what you're coming from that angle?
Speaker 2 00:19:44 That's very true. In fact, I specifically remember a pretty awesome SEO guy, kind of making fun of one of the articles we wrote. He's like, how many searches are there for that a month? Like 10, I mean, you dominate it, but what's the point. And now that article is making like four or 500 bucks a month. Right. So was just trying to get ahead of the ahead of the curve on these things. And I think there's a, there's a flip side, which is also, if you really do do a nice review and you put a lot of thought into it and you're the first company to review a new product, you might get a link from that company that is actually like, it's kind of hard to beat a review that has a link from the company. Like that's, that's pretty awesome. Right. So, so we, there's an advantage to being first. Uh, the one that
Speaker 3 00:20:29 I'll say that that's, um, just to kind of add on is, is that, uh, companies, if you're, if you're early on, they're very hungry in general for press, they're very hungry for partnerships. Um, we've helped so many different startups just start their affiliate program from, from the ground up. They didn't have one before they started talking to us. Um, and so your, your
Speaker 2 00:20:48 Position does a very unique partner in that realm, uh, once you, once you do that. So, um, yeah, it's just a pace to be early, basically.
Speaker 1 00:20:56 That's awesome. It, I came across a similar technique years ago, but definitely not as, um, as advanced as you guys and people were basically, um, there's a site JV zoo where people would launch like, um, informational type products, informational content, and people would look what launches were coming up. And they would create landing pages around those and they'd have no search traffic, but when it launched people would then start searching for it. And these guys were at the top, but you guys are doing that on just a much bigger scale with real brands and real products and, you know, commercial products rather than just, you know, someone who's writing a guide on how to do X, Y, Z, or something.
Speaker 2 00:21:36 Yeah. I think it's also important to remember that the, for us, I'd like an important client is the affiliate manager inside of that company. And we want to have relationships with them and we talk with them on zoom quite a bit and exchange a lot of emails with them. And that gives us sort of get, we get some insider stuff from them too, in terms of features coming or new products coming, we can ask them for a special discount codes. We can get images that aren't used anywhere else on the web of the products and things like that. So we can really, I really treating those people like with the importance that they deserve and really caring about them. Like they, they have a job that they're doing and they have a goals that they're trying to achieve. So if you can understand what they're trying to do and you can help them a lot and you can show that you care, uh, you can, they, they will, they'll, they'll help you back. And then they move jobs. So they go to new companies and they, they ask you to write about them or they introduce you to their friend. Who's starting a new company, uh, or has a new role. So like that kind of network is actually pretty awesome. And they're, they're smart marketers. They're fun people to get to know. So it's, it's kind of neat. It's just, it's, it's I guess a perk, not, uh, it's less work and more of a perk, I guess. That's cool.
Speaker 1 00:22:48 I sometimes kind of forget that there's an actual person on the other end, right? When we, we send traffic to these companies, we sometimes forget that it's someone's job to, to manage these affiliates and it's their job to bring in this traffic. I actually just think I just send traffic and it goes to the company and only think it, I don't think past the click, but it sounds like you guys are thinking past the click and it's paying off.
Speaker 2 00:23:10 I think there's, I think there's like real customers, you know, there's a lot of affiliate affiliate. Marketers will think of Google as their customer, right? Like the God who police, we got a rank, that's a great place to start. Obviously you have nothing, not that. So Google is for sure, your customer and user, obviously it's the customer. And that ties very much into ranking for users, just hitting your site and bouncing, it's going to affect your rankings, but it's impacting conversion. So those are where I think, um, obviously we're worth focusing on to begin with, but then once you do have some traffic, um, and you do, you are able to create some direct relationships with brands then for
Speaker 3 00:23:46 Sure in this time and, uh, in those relationships cause they pay dividends in so many different ways. And they're the most fun, I would say. It's the most fun aspect of, of affiliate marketing is, you know, working with actually other people and helping their business grow.
Speaker 1 00:24:00 And are you, are you actively reaching out to these people or once you've created the content, are they reaching out to you? How does that, what does that typical relationship? How does that relationship start?
Speaker 3 00:24:10 Good, good question. Yeah, it happens in every which way imaginable, um, can be us being know proactive. Um, sometimes I'll give you a kind of a range of how it, how it works. So there's, at this point we get a fair amount of inbound interest. Um, we turned down a lot of categories, a lot of brands that we don't necessarily see as lucrative or worthwhile other times it's worthwhile, but we just sort of need to put it into a queue and prioritize it. Um, sometimes it's, it's such a great opportunity for some thankful that they reached out. Uh, so it can be a wide range of inbound inquiries on the outbound side. Um, definitely we're, as we mentioned before, we're writing a lot of speculative keyword, uh, kind of plays. And so in that sense, we are writing the content without a partnership in place.
Speaker 3 00:24:55 And once we get traffic, once we're pretty sure we can provide some value to the, to the brand. We will reach out. And in some cases it's taken six months a year, um, in order to get on their radar and a report or for on their radar in order for them to say yes, some programs are extremely competitive. Um, and so it's another, it's another reason why once you get in, you just want to make sure you're proving value. You're someone who they want to work with. You're offering up new ideas, um, and being creative about how you can help them grow. So not all are so hard. I, you know, some are really plug and play and we have a more or less anonymous relationship with them. Uh, you apply to a network, you get in, you barely talk to the person at all. Um, but the best ones are definitely, you know, a cold, cold outreach by email or LinkedIn or something like that, finding the right person, trying to understand what their growth challenges are and then see how your site can kind of plug in there.
Speaker 1 00:25:52 We also had some agencies that reach out to us as well. So agencies that do kind of manage affiliate or online marketing for brands, and they will come with whatever portfolio of brands and you can develop pretty strong relationships with them, pick off the brands that you actually think you can do something with. Yeah. Do you, have you guys ever had any kind of, um, pushback because obviously when you're doing like a versus posts, typically one product is going to be better than others. Have you ever any backlash from the competitor you've says not so great
Speaker 3 00:26:27 A little bit. Um, I think it tends to happen in markets that are extremely competitive. Um, so it's a little bit of a Seesaw where it's like on the one hand, there's some pushback. I'm like, Hey, why aren't we being positioned as number one? Why, why are you just saying we're amongst the best? Why don't you say we are the best? Uh, but on the other hand, it's
Speaker 2 00:26:44 Like, great. We kind of need to play ball with you because it's such a competitive space. Um, we know that you're anything bad that they say to us or vice versa and that the relationship is valuable to them as well. I shouldn't say so. It could tip the scale in the opposite direction. So it's a fine line. Um, definitely I've had very Frank conversations with many, many partners about that. I think the way that we combat it is we are just subjective, um, sort of shopper guide, chopper guides. We are, um, shepherding the shoppers to different, to the facts, to help them make the right decisions that are for them. We are not in the business of picking favorites. Um, and that's sort of the style of our content. I know I noticed that a lot of affiliates go around them of personal opinion. You know, this has my favorite.
Speaker 2 00:27:28 I have tried it. It's more of the influencer strategy. Um, but that's not really where we play. So we're, we're more in like the structure, the data, let's put it in front of the consumers and let them make the decision for themselves. And I think the other thing is we don't, we don't want to, if there's a product we'd hate or we don't, like, we generally just don't review it. So if someone says something or like, Oh, like we wouldn't, we wouldn't want one of our friends or family members using that product we passed. Right. So we're not in the business of like ripping on products and saying really nasty things. If it's something that stinks, like we're probably just not going to touch it, you know? So that, that's, there's a little bit of filtering in this stuff that we, we tend to do.
Speaker 1 00:28:12 Okay. No, that's yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah. I think like you mentioned lots of a typical sites give their, their own spin their own opinion and they will definitely promote a product even if, even if it's not so great, just because they're chasing the click. Right. But yeah, I like this approach. It's a good approach. So one thing which I think is unique about you guys, and you've touched upon it, there is, is how you, how you lay out the content, like how you structure the content. Um, and I wanted to ask is that you mentioned the template at the beginning where you would in these companies, you would go to the management with this outlet outline. Is that a template? Is that called something that you could go and look at what that would typically be structured? Like,
Speaker 2 00:28:54 I mean, yeah. You probably Google for RFP template and you've got RFP talent. Yeah. And I'm pretty sure you could probably find one. Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, yeah, I haven't really thought about it. It's just something we always did that like a couple of really thought about actually like kind of creating a template around it, but yeah, it probably is, but it does look pretty similar to what a lot of our ages we can imagine that you've got your, you got to convince your CEO to spend a million dollars on something that they're not really paying attention to. Yeah. You've got to introduce what you're trying to do and why, and then lead them through the research. So they know you're not just randomly like throwing darts. Right. And then you've got to lay off theirs and you've got to kind of lead them to where you want them to go. But then also, and then, you know, trans transferring idea to the affiliate world
Speaker 3 00:29:42 Also remembering that your reader isn't as CEO, they're just, uh, someone with a very short attention span. I mean, that's actually CEO like, but, um, they're not considering their own business. They're just considering or complexion or their next contact lenses or something like that. So
Speaker 1 00:29:59 Yeah. So on onto the technical part of the content then, so the tables there, obviously they look really nice. How are you, how are you making those? And they just, each them are tables. Have you found a solution because tables are the bane of everyone's life, making them look nice on desktop and mobile. Um, have you come up with a solution to that?
Speaker 3 00:30:20 I feel like we should probably just productize our solution cause it's um, yeah, I just want to ask the same thing, you know? Um, and so thanks for the thing that our tables look nice, definitely a pain in the butt at that is true. Um, you know, the, the trick is, is that if you do a little bit of custom coding in the beginning, you can more or less create a template that you can very quickly plug and play, um, you know, the images and like, you know, sort of emojis and different, fun things in there. Um, and so once you get the hang of that, I think it's just some heavy lifting on the front front side to kind of figure out what the best practice, what, how it's gonna look the best on all devices on your site. And then once you crack that code or you get that blueprint, then you're off to the races and you can do it every time.
Speaker 3 00:31:05 Um, technically speaking how we do it is it is actually a custom, each table is custom coded. Um, but we have a sort of clever way of, um, making it easy to swap in CSS, uh, you know, fairly easily. And then, um, on mobile, this is a little bit of a unique pack, so to speak. I think the jury is still out on how well, you know, it's, it's, uh, if it can be optimized, I should say, but instead of using a HTML table on mobile, we actually just use an image, um, of the table. And so that makes it so that you don't have to necessarily custom code responsive tables every time, or you don't have to worry about responsiveness breaking for some reason. Um, it also has the added benefit of allowing us to rank fairly high in Google image search because we're having this like pretty cool table that is really the crux of what everybody wants from this kind of content. Uh, and it's appearing in Google image searches. So that's an added benefit.
Speaker 1 00:32:05 That's cool. Are you finding that? Um, so how long have you been using the image, uh, this image technique for, because I always see that like, especially lots of structured, featured snippets around lists and tables, they tend to be pulled from the structured data from a table and with Google move into like index mobile index in first, I wonder how that would, how that would play into your ability to win featured snippets. If you don't have the structured data or on a mobile,
Speaker 3 00:32:34 It's a great question. And I, it's something that I worried about a lot, cause I thought, Oh man, we've, we've cracked the code. Like we've pronounced if we can get on image search, but I'll know like now we're moving to mobile indexing first probable, you know, what's going to happen. Um, so we have moved to mobile indexing first that's that's the reality. Um, and it doesn't seem to have hit our snippets super hard. I think we, we have other strategies to win snippets in other places. The tables is a great one. Um, but yeah, I'm not actually, you know, I, it's a great question. It's something we were worried about for a long time. I don't have a good answer in terms of why we haven't been hit. We probably should have.
Speaker 1 00:33:10 Okay. And how, how do you decide what goes into the table? Because again, that's the fine, fine balance between too much in there. And you know, it look in like chunks of texts and stuff and not enough where somebody can't make an informed decision. Do you, do you have a go-to checklist of this should go in a table and this shouldn't go in there or when you play there
Speaker 3 00:33:32 Not a go-to checklist per se. I think it really depends on the product. And, um, a lot of this is just putting yourself in the shoes of the shopper. So what are the, what are the five to 10, I'd say maybe 10 is that is an upper bound. You don't want to have two rows on your table. Um, you know, what are the five to 10 questions that you personally have to know before you buy, you put money on this product? Um, and when you put it, when you break it down that way, I think it's pretty obvious. And then you can add a couple more if it's light or, you know, there, sometimes the brands themselves will say, Hey, this is a differentiating factor for us. Will you please include this? And, you know, depending on whether or not we think that's important for the, for the consumer or not really considered that.
Speaker 3 00:34:14 So sometimes these things start one way and then expand shrink, et cetera. I actually, I said is a really good point. It definitely makes sense. If you have the relationship with the affiliate manager inside the organization to ask them how they differentiate, what makes you different than X or Y. And they will tell you that because they care about it and they probably spend all day thinking about it. Right. So putting that, putting that into the table. So that's less a, um, more thinking about SEO and more, this is what the brands are saying is important and they probably have more research than we do. So we should at least yeah. Based on what attention to what they're hungry.
Speaker 1 00:34:52 And do you use any, any schema markup or anything on the pages to, to, to tell Google that this structured data there? Um,
Speaker 3 00:35:01 For schema I'm like, what about this? What about this? I don't know if it works any of it, so I don't know, Alex, you should take as much. Yeah, we are definitely still in that phase of wondering if it's working or helping us on any level, like very interested in definitely exploring different schema. We have a review schema, we have breadcrumb schema. We have the search box, schema, logos, chemo, all the, all the standard basic stuff. Um, yeah, I haven't noticed any sort of star rebate or star star ratings or like the nice little kind of, um, added aesthetic element. The Serbs, um, are some, some of the partners in our kind of portfolio of sites they have. So I think it's a little bit hit or miss, um, we've structured them the same. They are the same schema thing, you know, with slightly different words, different ratings on the two sites. So it's a little bit random. I also noticed in Google search console all the time that the same schema without any changes, sometimes we'll have parents sometimes won't. So I just think it's a little bit of early days, uh, for Google figuring out how they want to value the schema overall. Long-term, I'm very bullish on schema. I think, you know, I am, I'm in the camp of give Google as much data to structure and to understand and structure your site as possible. And you will be rewarded for that.
Speaker 1 00:36:19 Go with going back, maybe, maybe like eight months ago or so, or a little bit longer, like every affiliate site had review markup schema on there and the front page for any kind of best XYZ type result was just full of, of, um, star boxes and then Google change up there and then they all disappeared and Sam got to keep them some didn't. So I don't, I don't know why, what the difference is.
Speaker 3 00:36:41 Yeah. Those lucky, those lucky star ratings, it definitely works for great is definitely improved. So yeah,
Speaker 1 00:36:50 I know. It's cool. It's cool. You make a new star. I've been delving like deep into the rabbit hole of schema lately and testing all kinds of, um, funky staff, you know, like, um, uh, actually linking in the schema to, for example, um, you know, one of your products could be, um, about hair loss and actually linking through to in the schema, say this hair loss is the same as I'm linked to the Wikipedia page. So Google matches the entities. So it knows that you're talking about exactly what you're talking about and trying to Mark up as much of that as possible, and then doing similar things on, um, on like the, the, about us page and the contact us page marking up in there, like actually where your citations are on the organization schema. So, you know, it's the same as this citation, this citation.
Speaker 1 00:37:37 So one, it helps Google to find them, but also it helps them to match the entities together. So there's, there can be no, like they know exactly that these two things are the same, the same businesses. It's the same. Yeah. They're there together. They're meant to be together and same on the, about us page for any kind of social media profiles marking those up in the schema. And, um, just so good is there's no confusion that Google knows. These are exactly your pages, your citations, your links. Um, yeah, I mean, I'm testing at the moment the jury's out. I don't even know if it's going to make any difference. It's been a ton of work to implement, but I, I don't even know if it works yet.
Speaker 3 00:38:15 You're just excited to be there. So thanks for putting that caveat at the end, let us know how it goes with any other, any other schemes that you're finding are working for you or any of your clients,
Speaker 1 00:38:25 Just that at the moment. Um, so we're just, just testing that. I mean, just the basic schema, like, like you mentioned about logos organization, like recipe schema is a big one. You're in the food space. Um, that in itself is a bit of a nightmare to get marked up correctly because there's so many different like nuances around nutrition and ingredients and serving and cost per serving. And you know, you have to have them all filled out and in search console, you check them, there's, there's plenty of, they're not errors they've worn into because you might've missed out like no box, you know, a certain ingredient or something like that. But yeah, no apart from that, but I I'm, I'm bullish on schema too as well. Alex, I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be big.
Speaker 3 00:39:07 I think, um, you know, one thing that we're very interested in, but we're, we're very unsure of how it's gonna pay off, uh, from a schema perspective would be thinking about how to, uh, build credibility by having kind of people with credentials, um, review and B be part of the authorship of your, uh, of your content, especially when it comes to health and wellness. It's a lot of sense. Um, and then using schema to, as you mentioned, just unequivocally tell Google who this person is, what their credentials are, why this is legit and why their word is, um, is, you know, worth trusting. So that's something that we're very interested in exploring, I guess my confidence level, um, given the number of errors in Google search console and the fact that I can't get my review stars to show up is it's like, Hey, this is something down the road. This isn't super important today, but absolutely worth getting your head up.
Speaker 1 00:40:05 Yeah, definitely. I think maybe adding like, um, a person's schema to the individual posts with the author or for details in there, and you can mention in the schema links to their LinkedIn profile, you can mention like, if they're, if they work for another company and they just write in for you, you can mention what that company is, their job title. They're like, you can Mark all of that up in the schema, which like you said, it just hands Google the data on a, on a silver platter rather than them having to try and figure it out.
Speaker 3 00:40:32 Yeah. It's interesting. I'll have to say on the one hand, Google seems to be trying to help webmasters not be so precise, you know, like, Hey, just have a site that loads, well, just have it be, user-friendly just write good content. Don't worry about all the technical stuff. Uh, and then they introduced schema and they're like, great, but actually get really granular with how you're constructing your site and giving us data. So it's, it's a little bit of a mixed message there, but, you know, see where it all lands.
Speaker 1 00:41:02 I think they T they tell you something on one hand and then they expect you to do something on the other hand. Basically,
Speaker 3 00:41:08 It's pretty, it's pretty hard. I empathize with them because on the one hand they do, they would like just some random person who was an expert to be able to start a webpage and have them do well. Right. Yeah. On the other hand, they love structure data. Like they love structure data.
Speaker 1 00:41:24 Yeah. <inaudible>, that kind of brings me onto my next point is how you guys are handling the whole eat thing, you know, the expertise and authority and trust. And you mentioned that you have these guest writers come in and how are you, how are you finding these relationships, how you forge these partnerships and having them right in the content, are they just reviewing it and happy to put their, their name and claim kind of credentials against this?
Speaker 3 00:41:48 Um, yeah, I mean, sometimes it's just through that through our network. So sometimes he'll know a dentist or something who's has a light load and wants to, you know, what's interested in startups or something and, um, wants to spend a few hours a week kind of re we're, reviewing your stuff and making sure it's all accurate. Um, other times it'll be, you know, a colder outreach and trying to find somebody who seems like the right fit, wants to build their online profile and their, their credibility online, but as credential and is more impressive and knowledgeable. Um, so yeah, it can happen kind of a couple of different ways, but, um, you know, generally speaking, it's not a process of like great, here's all of our web articles, please review them all. It's sort of more piecemeal like, Hey, we'd love your, your opinion on this. Uh, you're kind of the subject matter expert in this space. If you're willing, we'd love to, uh, you know, kind of feature you on our site as well.
Speaker 1 00:42:42 Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. I think that that's super important in the space you're in like the health and wellness space. I don't suppose it would work so well if you guys just had a, you know, an image from this person does not exist and it was a totally made up person who had no credentials or anything like that.
Speaker 3 00:42:58 No, they're, they're, they're real experts. So that's pretty important. Um, I mean, we, the other way that we, well, we hope to find them is through sort of broadcasting that we're looking for where people, right. So we still, I mean, more doctors would be helpful that just, um, like fitness instructors or nutritionalists would be helpful, potentially veterinarians, um, anybody else right now it's like, Oh, and insurance, I would love people who are experts in insurance. Like I have so many different sites I want to start or fight more about, but like insurance I think is, is going to be pretty interesting. So I would love an insurance agent or insurance broker or something like that. So there's some pretty specific type people. Who've got some pretty amazing expertise that would be helpful to us. And so I was just working through a network and let it letting it go know we're looking for help,
Speaker 1 00:43:49 Particularly fire insurance, right.
Speaker 3 00:43:52 In California to be an expert. I just want to say one other thing is that when you're, I think a lot of struggle for a lot of folks who want to get into affiliate is picking the niche, right? Like figuring out what topic is going to be worth your time, uh, because if you choose wrong from the beginning, just like I did with best Japanese whiskey.com and there's just nothing that you could possibly do. Right. There's, it's just not going to work. Um, but then once you get into affiliate marketing, what I'd say is that the at to Healy's point like the, the opportunities abound, all of a sudden, you're starting to recognize, wow, there are so many different sites that I would like to create. Um, so that's kind of like where Healey and I are. It's like, there's just not enough time, but we, we understand the model and we understand where the opportunity lies, really just looking for, um, ways to kind of increase our bandwidth and, and awesome people to work with to potentially expand the footprint that, uh, you know, into the areas that we want to go.
Speaker 1 00:44:51 So, yeah. I mean, how, how has that, how is that going to work for you guys? What, what, so you mentioned at the start of the call, you got kind of alluded to it here that you guys have the connections with the affiliate programs, and you've got this awesome network built up and you've got the expertise was, you've done this several times, but you're looking for partners to help you expand that bandwidth. Right. How does that work or what does that look like and what are you, what are you, obviously, we know what you bring to the table, but what are you expecting the other side to bring to the table and how is it all connected together?
Speaker 3 00:45:24 I think, um, you know, Haley mentioned it earlier as well, that affiliate marketing is not rocket science, so really anyone can do it. It just takes a little bit of confidence direction, um, and really just drive sticktuitiveness. Um, and so the way that this has worked in the past is just the same way that Healey and I used to feel around. Wouldn't it be cool if we had like a dumb affiliate marketing site that made some money, um, I've made that joke. I've had that same level of conversation with other marketers in the past. And so once we figured out in versus spin in the model, um, I've, I re approached them and said, Hey, remember when we used to joke, well, that joke is kind of a reality now. And if you want in on it, um, we would love to partner with you.
Speaker 3 00:46:03 Cause I know that you're an awesome marketer and what we like, we've enjoyed working with each other in the past. And so, you know, I guess, uh, it can work in a number of different ways, depending on somebody who's bandwidth and, you know, financial situation and all the rest. But, um, you know, uh, the way that it has worked for us so far is, uh, find someone who's really driven and really interested in affiliate marketing. Um, we worked together, we sort of bring the partnerships and the blueprint and some of the content resources and the expertise. And of course the confidence as well. Um, you know, like, Hey, if you do this, you go make money kind of thing. Cause that's a big, big, big question Mark and most entrepreneurs and especially in affiliate marketing, um, in their heads. And so, yeah, that's kind of how it's blossomed for us in the past.
Speaker 3 00:46:50 Um, I think it could happen in a lot of different ways. I've heard of other people creating a more franchise or I should say more mentorship model. So you kind of start out as sort of an intern, you cut your teeth, all of a sudden, you're now getting paid a little bit and all of a sudden now you're getting some equity in the business. So it can happen in a lot of different ways. The model that we've seen work really well is just, um, great. You start your own site. We will tell you what to do. We will share our knowledge and resources. And as you know, in exchange for that, we are now our owners in everyone's site in all of its proceeds.
Speaker 1 00:47:24 Yeah. And anyone who's interested in, you know, approaching that with you guys, how, how is best for them to, to find out more about this? The, I mean, it's, it sounds like an awesome opportunity. Do they have to like apply for this? Do you Yvette in people like, cause it seems like the dream, it seems like the dream to partner up with someone like YouTube. So how, how, how, how would people find out more about that?
Speaker 2 00:47:48 You know, after this podcast is a flood of applicants, definitely going to have to formalize our process a bit more. But I think as of right now, we're in that, not in that position and you know, we'll sort of entertain a lot of conversations and try and find great people to work with. Obviously that's the key, if you, if you partner with someone bad, none of this works. So, um, you know, definitely some level of adding some level of feeling comfortable with them and their background. Absolutely. I mean, you, you can reach, you can reach us either through the finger suspend, contact us web form on the website or, you know, I am on LinkedIn. There's not very many Healey Jones is on LinkedIn, so I'm pretty easy to find. So ping me there as well and just make it clear why you're reaching out to me because I do get people reaching outside the service, Tufts.
Speaker 2 00:48:31 That's not really, you know, what I'm interested in. Uh, but, but yes, and I think, you know, what we would look for is someone who's willing to do the work. Right? So before we launched the sites that we have been successful with, we have written by ourselves maybe five or 10 to three, 4,000 word articles, right? So it's like, we're actually going to write it. We're going to write it. And we're going to build the nav. And we're thinking about the kind of high-level structure we're going to sketch out the homepage. It's like, this is all the work we would want someone to do before we even kicked something off. And I think there's a little bit of just sort of, you've got to prove that you're willing to put the work in because it is, if this, these are side hustles, right? And so we've got a day job, you might have a family or their obligations. It's everybody would love to make a few hundred or $3,000 extra month, but it takes work. It's not passive income. Like, I don't know who started the myth of passive income. That was, that was the one thing that I might not have been honest with Alex about. Like when I was like, Oh, we only have to do any work, money comes in, but it does still takes work.
Speaker 1 00:49:43 Yeah. We'll put some links in the show notes anyway, so people can, can reach out and contact you if they, if they're interested in that. Um, what, what's the fee? What's the future? Not, not just for, for you guys, but for fingers is fin, like, is there an exit strategy? Do you have, are you thinking about exit? Are you just thinking about continuing to grow? Will this, will the site turn into something bigger, like a community or even a, a portal where these brands can push exclusive content and what's the long-term vision for the fin versus Finn?
Speaker 2 00:50:14 I think, uh, you know, the future is still bright for fin person spin. We're excited too. We still think there's a lot of room to grow within the current model. I think there's still tons of direct to consumer health and wellness brands. If you almost
Speaker 3 00:50:28 Every day that are like, yep, that's a good one. We would love to partner with them. That could be a big company one day. Um, so I think, you know, business as usual for the foreseeable future, uh, one day yeah. Potentially selling the site, you know, I think the multiples are good and, um, we're, we're trying to do the best to keep everything clean. So that one day, you know, a couple from an accounting perspective when day we're in a good position to do that. Um, but yeah, other than that, we have seen, excuse me, we have seen some kind of community-based like, Hey, Michelle, more shoppable discovery experiences. Um, but I'm more like web apps for D to C brands rather than sort of review sites. My question always is how do they get traffic, uh, without venture capital kind of like paid traffic venture capital fuel paid traffic, um, cause like at the end of the day you still don't have people coming to your site and you can't, it's hard to make money.
Speaker 3 00:51:23 Um, so yeah, I don't know if we have like a grand product vision other than that, but there's the acquiring and expanding out of our portfolio and our sort of franchise sites. That's a big initiative cross, um, expanding into new categories. So always diversifying, uh, you know, where our income is coming from and who our partners are. Um, there's also, you know, just a fair amount of kind of social and new social channels and new sort of Haley always makes fun of me is sort of pushing our business too much in an agency direction, but there are kind of new, uh, there's always a new clubhouse, Tik, TOK, Snapchat type of things that your partners want you to help them with. Um, and so it doesn't necessarily mean, you know, managing ad spend. It just means being creative with, um, you know, kind of the, the marketing strategies that they're interested in pursuing and potentially you find something there that's like its own business. So, um, you know, I think, uh, that's a long-winded way of saying that we don't have like a really crystallized, um, you know, a vision for the future, but I think business as usual and expanding the number of sites, expanding that the partners that we work with,
Speaker 2 00:52:28 I don't know, I'm going to give it up, I'm going to try to attack it in a different way. Um, so I think I would love it if in two to three years we had half a dozen or a dozen folks who were franchised with where we own a meaningful percent of their sites who are attacking specific niches that they were really passionate about and where we work like Alex and I will continue to drive forward the connections with the affiliate marketers and finding the new companies and new spaces to get into. I just think it, we have recurring check-ins with the people we're partnered with now, and those conversations are really fun and I'm learning and discovering new things. And so, yeah, I would love it to just be like a franchise network where there's a handful of really awesome, really dedicated people who are all experts in particular areas. And we're, we're all kind of learning and growing together. I think,
Speaker 3 00:53:19 I guess just, just taking that a step further, like the lo the longer term plan could also be, um, becoming
Speaker 1 00:53:26 A, almost like a, a boutique, um, affiliate network yourself. Like if you have all these great director brand connections and you can negotiate all these deals and then you've got your franchisee model, uh there's, there's no reason why you then couldn't potentially, especially if you've helped form some of these affiliate programs where you couldn't then take that to a wider audience.
Speaker 2 00:53:46 We have actually helped a number of brands launched affiliate programs. Like we will look for people and say, Hey, we think you have an awesome product. I'm probably going to write about it. We don't have an affiliate program that we can tell, which is there one, or can you start one? And some, some of them will say at some point, I'm going to have one, but I don't have one now. And others will say, I've never, I don't want to do that. And we very persistently keep knocking on the door and eventually people are creating programs almost specifically for us. So Adam, that's a really smart idea
Speaker 1 00:54:18 Just on the technical front, where if someone doesn't have an affiliate program, how are you, how are you helping them create that? Like, is, are you using software to like, are you, are you actually, hands-on helping them set up the software you just recommend? And I would use this. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:54:33 Yeah. And then there's, there's kind of two ways to go. Like one is to recommend them into a real piece of software or affiliate network. Right. Um, and then the other way to go is to do it in a much more lightweight basis where there's a coupon code or the UTM or something like that. And then we are moving to them reporting to us accurately. But yeah. Um, we, we tend to work with people who are pretty reputable, so we're not reportedly trusting of them. And so those are, those are kind of the two ways to go. Um, and it, it depends a little bit on sort of how much of a lift those folks are willing to take and how much technical resources they have inside the organization to kind of go either way.
Speaker 1 00:55:14 Yeah. And then I guess one of my last questions for you guys is, um, just going back to what Alex said there about like these new, these new channels and where brands probably want to get exposure, have you guys ever thought of, or have you actually even created like brand specific content, not for an affiliate commission, but maybe like as, as almost an extension of their marketing team. So they want to push a, a campaign on Tik TOK, you have the audience they'll help you create the media and, you know, you push it to your audience for maybe a fee rather than a, an affiliate commission.
Speaker 2 00:55:50 It's, it's interesting. Um, that would be definitely moving into more of the agency realm. Yeah, I think, uh, you know, I think they can be structured in a lot of different ways, but one thing that we have done on quite a bit of is give access, give brands access to advertise on our social media handles. So, uh, it's fairly easy to do through the Facebook ad manager and all these companies have performance marketing teams. Um, so instead of us running the ads on their behalf, it's more like, Hey, great. Now you have access to our handle. Um, please, you know, add the right to make sure that
Speaker 3 00:56:24 It's all above board, but other than that, you know, you can use our audiences. You can, um, you know, use our social handles to, uh, advertise, to, you know, advertise your product essentially. And for different brands that works differently. I'd say as a retargeting strategy, it's pretty, pretty strong for most friends. Um, we can think of a third party validation as being important as one of the last kind of confidence boosters before someone crosses the line. Um, so yeah, anyway, that's, that is one strategy that we do pursue with grants and different grants with work with us on an evergreen basis.
Speaker 1 00:57:00 Well, when they have access to your Facebook manager there, do they have access to your pixel data as well?
Speaker 3 00:57:06 Uh, you can specify, uh, what you give them access to. So, you know, not a, not in every case, but in most cases, no. Um, yeah, most of the time it's just access to advertise on our handles, but not necessarily access to our audiences.
Speaker 1 00:57:20 I saw something going back a couple of months back, there's actually a marketplace now where you can list your social media pixel data. I can't remember what it was called, but you can actually sell your pixel data to brands who want to retarget your audience.
Speaker 3 00:57:34 Um, there's something called Lou Manu, uh, which is a little different, but it's, uh, it's similar. It's just a marketplace where connecting brands to people, to publishers and social media accounts, uh, for this exact kind of thing. So it's very similar.
Speaker 1 00:57:50 I, I tried to sell the pixel data from one of my sites actually, when I saw this direct, but trying to explain and trying to figure out like a payment method, um, like how much they would pay, whether it was a flat fee or whether it was, you know, per impression on the site or we just couldn't figure it out. Um, but I thought I was super kind of niche with manage additional monetization, like sound your pixel data.
Speaker 3 00:58:17 Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, the other thing that the other one integration strategy that we've stayed away from that I know a lot of affiliates go for is just display ads and hooking into and Zoe or something like that. Um, so, you know, maybe when we're getting ready to sell the site, we would plug that in and boost revenue. No, I'm just joking. But I think, you know, I think there's that CEO, uh, you know, uh, headwinds potentially, uh, you know, th that plugging in a tool like that will hurt your SEO. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:58:49 Awesome. I mean, is there anything else you guys want to want to cover off before we wrap it up for the day?
Speaker 3 00:58:55 Um, I just want to say that, you know, although, uh, we've had more success building our own sites, um, than buying them, it is more work. Uh, obviously it goes without saying, um, but we have loved working with, with you Adam, and, you know, niche website builders in general, and you guys have done a great job on, on some of the sites that we bought and helping us maintain them because we only have so much time and bandwidth, um, not just maintain, you know, help them grow
Speaker 1 00:59:22 And actually become more profitable than when we first bought them. So, yeah, I think, uh, I just want to plug your service because I think it's really fantastic and it's been great for us. It's really not. That's awesome. Steady drumbeat of high quality content that really helps. It helps a lot. Um, so we said, if anybody's going to do this, it's not, it's not passive income. You do have to even investigate the content. So it's nice to have partners like you guys who can help us do that. That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, yeah, we don't do these podcasts or advertise our services. I think it is. There's more value there, but yeah, I really appreciate the kind words. It's great. Um, yeah, I mean, we'll put some contact details in the show notes so people can get in touch and hopefully, you know, you have a massive influx of, uh, of new partners that want to partner with you guys. I think it will be an awesome opportunity, but, um, yeah. Thanks for your time today, guys has been great. Thank you so much, Adam. I can see you soon. Bye.
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